Vaisseau

Don Case

Don Case

Joined
Jul 10, 2021
Messages
1,472
Points
393

Location
Vancouver Island
In Mondfelds "Historic Ship models" quite often the figures say "after Vaisseau". What does this mean? Is this some historical date that everyone (except me:)) should know? All I can find is that it's French for boat.
 
This is a shot in the dark, but perhaps you are missing the name of the vessel or ship. i.e.: ... after vaisseau la (insert ship's name here).
...henry
 
Don Case said:
In Mondfelds "Historic Ship models" quite often the figures say "after Vaisseau". What does this mean? Is this some historical date that everyone (except me:)) should know? All I can find is that it's French for boat.
Click to expand...
It is french and means "Ship" - not boat
f.e. the "74 gun ship" is a "VAISSEAU DE 74 CANONS"

Can you make one or two photos, showing us the places in Mondfeld book where this is written?
Somebody can try to check in other Mondfeld copies f.e. the german version....
 
Here ya go! Sorry it took so long, my great grandson came to visit. Bottom right both pictures. The phrase "after Vaisseau" occurs at least 16 times in the book. It's funny that no one else has noticed it.

DSC04681.JPGDSC04682.JPG
 
OK
I know, that @Thomas Marocke has this book (Wolfram zu Mondfeld, Historische Schiffsmodelle) in the german version

SANY0870.JPG

HMS Victory - 1/100 Heller [COMPLETED BUILD]

It should be alright. I totally agree it's too bright you need sunglasses, maybe some off the model experiments on toning the bright finish. Cheers, Stephen.
shipsofscale.com

so maybe he can make a short check in his copy
 
dockattner said:
In my profession a phrase like that means: 'as seen in the work of Vaisseau' or 'as reported by Vasseau' or something like that. Is there an author/researcher by that name? My google search came up with nothing...
Click to expand...
It's either that or possibly Vaisseau was a ship designer or something and his work sparked a change. It's just strange that Mondfeld mentioned him 16 times and there is nothing on the net. My wife did a long search and the only hit was a quote from this book.

Just an aside, should he be called "Mondfeld: or "du Mondfeld" when just using his surname?
 
So where does that leave us? I keep thinking that "after Vaisseau" might be the end of an era or something and it may be a clue as to what to use before and after that era.
 
Don Case said:
Just an aside, should he be called "Mondfeld: or "du Mondfeld" when just using his surname?
Click to expand...
His full name is
Wolfram zu Mondfeld
due to the fact, that he is well known because of his publications in Germany we call or mention his name only with
Mondfeld
 
In the first edition, Wolfram zu Mondfeld's book is written in German according to his nationality. Nowhere occurs the reference "after Vaisseau". This reference has been inserted by the translator and refers to the four elementary editions "The 74 gun ship" "Le vaisseau de 74 canons" of the "Ancre" publishing house after Boudriot. The translator was or is a very good connoisseur of the subject matter.

PB170418.JPG
Comparison volume 3 of the English edition.

Best regards
Thomas
 
Thank you, Thomas. I searched for that and found this page
https://ancre.fr/en/basic-books/9-v...-en-quatre-volumes-base-de-la-collection.html
This gives a date of 1780 so can I assume the when the book says "after Vaisseau" it is referring to changes made around 1780?
I'm sorry to be such a pain about this but I'm building the Discovery1789 and I'm finding an awful lot of changes that were made to ships in the last 20 years of the 18th century. Knowing this one thing may help in a few decisions.
Thank you again
Don
 
*** It should be noted that when W. Mondfeld published his book, ANCRE found that he had used some forty illustrations from Jean Boudriot's "Vaisseau de 74" without permission. Following a legitimate complaint, it was decided that W. Mondfeld should specify the origin of these drawings by indicating "after Le Vaisseau de 74" In France, there is a warning at the beginning of the book, in other editions, it is indicated on a case by case basis. Through the various reworking of translations or editions, the mention has been limited to "after vaisseau".
 
Don Case said:
In Mondfelds "Historic Ship models" quite often the figures say "after Vaisseau". What does this mean? Is this some historical date that everyone (except me:)) should know? All I can find is that it's French for boat.
Click to expand...
If I were to take a guess, I think "after vaisseau" would mean, as it appeared on the ship originally. In fine art, after a work of art's title it may have the word "after" and is usually followed by an artist's name, meaning in the style of that artist. So "after vaisseau" would mean, like the first one or original.
 
Hi Rekusant!

"After vaisseau" means in the case of the Mondfeld book that he used drawings of the author Boudriot from his books "le vaisseau de 74 canons" and thus violated the copyright law. It was therefore mandatory for him to cite the original sources.
It is also important for us modelers that we indicate the origin of the photo when publish photos from other sources. Actually, all photos, even without the addition of a copyright sign, are always owned by the owner.Publishers and authors of books often "close their eyes" when their works are simply used.

Best regards
Thomas
 
Don Case said:
Here ya go! Sorry it took so long, my great grandson came to visit. Bottom right both pictures. The phrase "after Vaisseau" occurs at least 16 times in the book. It's funny that no one else has noticed it.

View attachment 340922View attachment 340923
Click to expand...
I've wondered the same & guessed at it meant 'after the French created a navy', that's my 'two pence worth'.
 
Mondfeld is from Germany
1) in german language when we make a reference we use the german words
"nach" f.e. Boudriots 74 gun ship
so a simple translation, which is not really correct means
"after" -> in german "after" means "nach"
2) when Mondfeld wrote his book the 74 gun ship was only available in french language - so I guess he used "Vaisseau"
3) also known is, that Mondfeld "copied" or "borrowed" a lot of information from other writers
So all this is amking me sure by 99%, that Mondfeld refers here to Boudriots book and his drawings
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top