Something reasonable out of Hoeckel's "FREGATTE BERLIN 1674" possible?

[Iterum]

Dear Friends,

due to a ruptur in my retina I will be unable to build models for a longer time. As I am allowed to ready again I do have a plenty of time to deal with my "mind-games" untill 3D-view abilitys will come back fully.

Ab Hoving wrote in "Das Logbuch" His famouse article that this plan (beside others) from the Imperial Museum in Amsterdam:

...due to several errors in used material, wording, and shape of the model isn't an original/contemporary one of a Dutch pinass.

But a long time ago Mr. Hoeckel made a very interesting shipmodelplan just based on this questionable source. And in this book together with others He wrote some Text and added a special set of drawings for model building. And told in Germany his product FRIGATTE BERLIN or STAD BERLIJN in a book of the famous (but outdated) Blue Row.



A big German manufacturer produced a ship kit based on this set of plans in 1/40 (one to what?) in wood - it and it's halfbuild models got a common guest at e-buy over the years:



So I got the book as a present during my illness with the plans inside in an astonishing well preserved condition.

I know there were hundrets of BERLINs build over the last 50 years - and I do enter to you here with the question.

Based on the lines plan in the book:

and the drawings of the kit floating arround:

Are three sails above each other possible in 1674 at all?

So my question is if it is possible to build something reasonable based on these lines "cladded" with some drawings from the two van de Veldes?

Here all the pictures of their Dutch fregats I was able to find (with a review below) online:

10 instead of 6 gunports (allways per side)

9 instead of 6 gun ports fine detail

9 instead of 6 gunports beautyfull figurehead

...a first hit with 6 gunports of 6 in the main battery...

...the transom looks great but again a surplus in gunports - could one "transplant" the transom onto the above hull?

Not the best findings are these two:

11 gunports and a very high rising aft...


...hardly anything to identify "in the fog" here.


I am quite hopefully about this finding of "A Dutch Fregat by Van de Velde the Younger"


There is only a single gunports "too much" but the shape looks right and the drawing is crisp.

At the very end I bumped into one English fregat with two surplus guns per broadside:


So do you think it is a possibility (by figuring out what bow-view belongs to the transom portrait) or should I fry something like an Dutch (like BERLIN is defenetly) or Danish build early French frigate?

Thank you very much for your intrest.

 

[Ab Hoving]

As always: you can build whatever you like. Model building is just a hobby. You can build a Black Pearl or any other nonsense design. It is even possible to succeed in making something beautiful out of it. All well as long as you have fun in building.
The problem starts when you want to produce something credible, something referring to historical sources. These Hoeckel plans, with all due respect, are not. However beautiful the model based on it might be, it remains complete nonsense.
In your gallery of examples you did not mention that fact that all frigates you show ('pinas' is simply a wrong identification) are two-deckers in contradiction to the one Hoeckel drew. I never ever spotted one single decked frigate. But that is another story, let's keep it simple.

 

[Iterum]

Thanks Ab, that sounds realistic and bitter...
...but realistic! Thank you very much.

And so would the Dutch build FRIEDRICH III. 1689 be any better choice? I am looking at 50-gun ship suddenly.

IThe plan set is from the book "Schiffe unterm roten Adler" (Ships under the Red Eagle) written by Günther Schmidt in 1986 publisher is Hirnstorff Rostock/Delius-Klarsing Bielefeld.

Or is the "Der holländische Zweidecker von 1660/1670" a reasonable choice?

Shemale is such a beauty - but then I do have to struggle

with an emense 64-gun Ship of the Line! And in this drawings are including a reconstructed mast- and rigging out of the first decade of the XX.century (rebuild on Emperor Wilhelm II. special order by some seamen of a Naval Station near Berlin). So I do not know if these are of any good?

Or is it possible to reduce/deminish the lines - put in the decks and... :-/

So where to get an early Dutch Fregat from?

 

[Ab Hoving]

Nothing bitter intended Chris, things are what they are.

So you are looking for plans for a small frigate. Forget original drawings, they are non-existing. New drawings? Yes, I remember some German model builders successfully working on a model of 'Edam'. Perhaps you should explore German forums. Another option is Artitec's Postiljon. Herbert Tomesen planned to bring it out as a kit, but changed his plans. Perhaps he has material that can be used. You can find Artitec online. Here an impression of the model:





A ship like this can relatively easily be built. 26 guns...

 

[Heinrich]

Christian. If you are willing to widen your scope to the 1680's and to include 50-gun ships, I may have something for you.

 

[Iterum]

Christian. If you are willing to widen your scope to the 1680's and to include 50-gun ships, I may have something for you.

That sounds great, Heinrich!

 

[Iterum]

Nothing bitter intended Chris, things are what they are.

So you are looking for plans for a small frigate. Forget original drawings, they are non-existing. New drawings? Yes, I remember some German model builders successfully working on a model of 'Edam'. Perhaps you should explore German forums. Another option is Artitec's Postiljon. Herbert Tomesen planned to bring it out as a kit, but changed his plans. Perhaps he has material that can be used. You can find Artitec online. Here an impression of the model:

View attachment 428024View attachment 428025 View attachment 428022

View attachment 428023

A ship like this can relatively easily be built. 26 guns...

That looks great - wounderfull...

Edit: Bitter is from time to time not too bad for our health ;-) and I do like your truthfull language pushing straight towards the point.

 

[Heinrich]

I will see what I can scrounge together tonight and get back to you tomorrow.

 

[Heinrich]

Dear Christian.

The information that I have was sent to me by @Ab Hoving in connection with his build of: "A 143 feet long Dutch warship from 1681." Best is that you ask Ab for this. It includes a PDF, CAD drawings and design and the hydrodynamic report.

I hope you come right.

 

[Ab Hoving]

The plans Heinrich is referring to are modified plans of the Hohenzollermodel. Not exactly a frigate. A frigate is a man-of-war with a maximum of 40 gun (at least in Holland in the 17th century).
Give me some time, I am working on a lines plan of the 100 feet long frigate I mentioned above. I think that one is closer to what you are looking for than the big Hohenzollern model. Unless you think otherwise...

 

[Iterum]

I will see what I can scrounge together tonight and get back to you tomorrow.

Thank you very much

 

[Iterum]

The plans Heinrich is referring to are modified plans of the Hohenzollermodel. Not exactly a frigate. A frigate is a man-of-war with a maximum of 40 gun (at least in Holland in the 17th century).
Give me some time, I am working on a lines plan of the 100 feet long frigate I mentioned above. I think that one is closer to what you are looking for than the big Hohenzollern model. Unless you think otherwise...

That would be a great project to build, I am pationate and do wait, Ab. Thank you very much for this prompt support...

 

[Iterum]

The plans Heinrich is referring to are modified plans of the Hohenzollermodel. Not exactly a frigate. A frigate is a man-of-war with a maximum of 40 gun (at least in Holland in the 17th century).
Give me some time, I am working on a lines plan of the 100 feet long frigate I mentioned above. I think that one is closer to what you are looking for than the big Hohenzollern model. Unless you think otherwise...

Dear Ab, so it will come on our journey to


something like this ship* painted in 1680 by Van de Velde? I did count 26 gun barrels and open lids - giving a 50 (chaseports armed by 1/2 gun) or 52 gun ship to me (in case two aft gun ports are permanently armed) if I am right.
That's a goal...

Thanks for this.

_______
* I wasn't able to figure out any name belonging to this ship - does anybody has a name?

 

[Ab Hoving]

The drawings of this ship I can send you right away, because I built it a few years ago:


But I was under the impression that you were looking for a much smaller ship, a frigate, so I am busy finding draughts for such a vessel. So make your pick: this big 60-guns one (already available) or the smaller one 26-guns like the Postiljon I mentioned, for which you will have to be patient for a while.
Ab

 

[Iterum]

what a beauty! I do think I will try the bigger solution - 60 gunner. That looks great. But will be a plenty of small steps. Thank you very much.

 

[Ab Hoving]

Here you go:













For the details I advise you to use the drawings from the book by Heinrich Winter you showed earlier. If you can work with it (if you have the free program Delftship) I can send you the 3D file.
Furthermore I showed some stages in mij report of the build: https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/...hip-from-1681-cardstock-completed-build.4634/
If you need any help, you know where to find me.
Ab

 

[Iterum]

Thank you veyr very much, Ab!

Certainly the first question is allready there:

this is the 1'=11" or 1:1 drawing and I have to deal with millimeters?

 

[Ab Hoving]

It is 1:1 and in millimeters and doing some math you will find a model length between perpendiculars of 61,9 cm for your chosen 1/64 scale.

 

[Totmoz]

If you're interested. Reconstruction of the frigate Berlin. Igor Сapinos, Ukraine. Very similar to your first drawings

 

[Ab Hoving]

Very similar indeed @Totmoz , and nicely executed.
But the whole conversation started with the point that the drawings of this 'reconstruction' were hopelessly unreliable and a ship like this one probably never existed.
Sorry, but thank you for your participation.
Ab