Shroud tightness

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How tight should the shrouds be? Just enough keep them straight? The partners hold the masts vertical so that's not an issue. I'm using polyester rope so there seems to be quite a bit of stretch and I don't know if I should be using any of it. If I took most of the stretch out of all the shrouds I think the load could add up to quite a bit and that kinda scares me.
 
I'm with Y.T. On my Vasa I kept the shrouds snug enough that they held their 'straightness' but no more than than that (I also used poly lines). Too loose and they slouch and make tying ratlines nearly impossible (learned from experience) - too tight and you introduce lateral forces that might pull your mast out of alignment. Indeed, I was so concerned about that I worked on both sides at the same time (for example - placed one shroud pair on the right and then one shroud pair on the left...repeat...repeat...).
 
On a real ship:
The mast is fixed with the partners, yes. but a lot of the forces the wind is producing in the sails is transfered also via the shrouds and not onlyby the mast.
When the wind is blowing, the mast will be slightly bended and is additionally producing tension in the shrouds. The shouds are helping also, that the mast is not so much bended, like without the shrouds. These forces also pressing the mast down, so that the mastfoot is pressed against the keel and producing propulsion.

1096417527_Shroudforcediagram.jpg.b777494db20febe0a931544c52423e1c.jpg

Mast and shrouds are producing a triangle of forces -> what I want to say is, that the shrouds are under tension

 
The initial tightness of your shrouds is very different between poly line and natural fiber line such as cotton. Since cotton is not as elastic as poly, it will not return to its original length after being stretched like poly. It is also affected by moisture, so if dry, it will lengthen and go slack, and if damp, it will shrink. That's why it's often waxed, to avoid swings in tension with changes in humidity.

If using poly, it will be much easier to set a tension such that if it does stretch, it will remain taut. Think of it like a stiff rubber band. Poly can remain taut under even light tension, whereas if you set the tension on a cotton shroud lightly, it will go slack as soon as the weather becomes dry. Where live in Minnesota, the humidity has the same huge swing that it does in Siberia. When you live in the center of a continent, the seasons are more extreme. Winter air is so dry you will get nose bleeds from the dryness, and in Summer, the humidity is so high, you would think you live on the sea coast.

Because cotton may loose its tension in dry conditions, and does not stretch when tensioned nearly as much as poly, you have to set the tension on your shrouds a bit higher than poly, or risk it going slack later due to humidity and age changes. That's one reason why you see old museum models with natural fiber rigging have such incredibly high slack in all lines after 100 years. That rigging doesn't bounce back like poly. The amount of tension on poly can be varied a lot more. It will take a lot more stretching before the poly threatens to pull masts out of alignment. That being said, it is a bit less difficult to balance the tension between port and starboard shrouds, and to match the tension between the first pairs of shrouds you rig and the last pair of shrouds.

Matching the tension of each pair of shrouds as you rig them is a careful balancing act. If you set the tension of the first pair of shroud too loosely, each pair you rig afterward as you move aft adding shrouds may cause your first set or sets to go slack, because each set of shrouds adds more and more force to the masts, causing them to want to bend rearward. If they bend far enough, the first sets of shrouds could go slack. The trick is to choose a tension which is equal port to starboard, but also close to the same tension as all the other shrouds on that mast.

The appearance of poly is very plastic-like, and has more shine than real hemp line, but if you use cotton or other natural fibers, you have to battle the fuzzies. The furriness of cotton is extreme, and will present a distraction to the viewer and detract from the appearance of the model. Linen is a better choice, being less furry, but it's expensive and hard to find. Old fly fishing line from the 1950's was used decades ago, and it is scarce today, and in not available in a wide variety of diameters.
 
How tight should the shrouds be? Just enough keep them straight? The partners hold the masts vertical so that's not an issue. I'm using polyester rope so there seems to be quite a bit of stretch and I don't know if I should be using any of it. If I took most of the stretch out of all the shrouds I think the load could add up to quite a bit and that kinda scares me.
pre stretch any rope if it streches. but if you use aqulity rope made for the job it should not be needed
You need to res strech roes you mak

T do know Jotika ope is ready to Use

Also run it through Bees bax block this gets rid of any jairs and makes iit easy to use
 
From my experience the one thing to avoid is using a rigging line that twists under tension…not just a stretch but a stretch with a twist. The twist will cause many issues in rigging the shrouds...such as trying to “untwist” the “twist.” So if the line you choose twists under tension I suggest using another line option. The twist results in how a line is made…in this case pulling the line taught tries to “untwist” the line. Hope this makes sense.
 
Wouldn't any rope try to untwist when you tension it? Just the nature of the beast?

(later thought) Or should the counter twisting within the rope stop that?
 
Having been in the antique furniture restoration business I have had the good fortune of having the acquaintance of a good, reliable, knowledgeable and experienced upholsterer who has supplied me with spools of remaindered upholstery sewing thread of a wide variety of line of weights, colors and materials, often natural but not fuzzy! Even the synthetics have a very natural look! Often, it's not been what I knew, but who! And he often just let me rummage through his remainders and take whatever I wanted for free! Plus, his wife could be engaged to sew sails! A relationship with a good old fashioned, experienced ( often old- world upholsterer) is a good thing to cultivate. ;) Thumbsup

Pete
 
pre stretch any rope if it streches. but if you use aqulity rope made for the job it should not be needed
You need to res strech roes you mak

T do know Jotika ope is ready to Use

Also run it through Bees bax block this gets rid of any jairs and makes iit easy to use
I've only tried it once but I found that the bees wax kinda fills the twists and takes some of the definition away(makes it roundish). Did I do something wrong?
 
pre stretch any rope if it streches. but if you use aqulity rope made for the job it should not be needed
You need to res strech roes you mak

T do know Jotika ope is ready to Use

Also run it through Bees bax block this gets rid of any jairs and makes iit easy to use
Using Syren rope on my Cutty Sark. Soaked in water overnight and then hung with two light clips. Fun to see how much twist comes out.
 
Wouldn't any rope try to untwist when you tension it? Just the nature of the beast?

(later thought) Or should the counter twisting within the rope stop that?
No…in my opinion most well made rigging thread does not twist (or untwist) under tension…not really the nature of well made rigging threads. What happens with a thread that twists under tension is it tries to “untwist” or recover to standing state which forces the deadeyes to twist to the side. I regularly use a rigging thread for shrouds that has zero twist under load. Thus I can provide a snug taught load on the shroud without any twist of the deadeyes.
 
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I've only tried it once but I found that the bees wax kinda fills the twists and takes some of the definition away(makes it roundish). Did I do something wrong?
Try using a heat gun to carefully melt the wax while the line is under some tension, with just enough heat to melt the wax. It will soak in and the wax clumps will disappear.
 
In over thirty years of model building, I've never experienced a winding/unwinding situation. All of the rigging line I've used has been natural material, including the thread that I use to seize (sp?) the lines. When installing the shrouds, I've alternated them from side to side, lightly tensioning as I go to ensure the masts stay properly aligned to the centerline of the ship. As I tie the ratlines, I put a small top of thin CA on each connection. Rightly or wrongly that seems to set the shrouds such that they've never sagged or drooped. I have had some running rigging develop slackness with changes in humidity, but then in the winter they tighten up again.

So for me, the short answer is that the shrouds should be under enough tension to stay in shape without sagging, and so long as you're balancing the installation from side to side and not making them extremely tight, then all is good. Tight enough that they have a little give when you push against them, but not so much that it plays like a guitar string. :)
 
I'll have to test some of my homemade rope to see if it twists. I guess just hanging a weight on the end of a piece should show any tendency to twist?
 
I tried a few lengths of my rope. If I hang a 1 oz fishing weight on the end it untwists a couple or three turns and then stops. The more weight, the more it untwists. Does anyone have some commercial pieces if rope they can test? I still think that it's the nature of the beast.
 
RE heat guns: I have a real heat gun. Good for peeling paint and setting your house on fire (and/or burning yourself!) It is So hot it will burn up the rope AND the model. May I recommend a hair dryer on low heat? The high heat setting will probably be too hot and the force of air too strong and could damage surrounding rigging and model parts. Patience with the low setting will probably do the trick. If you wax the line and heat it before it's on the model, then the high heat is fine. Just suspend the line with a weight at the bottom end to keep it from blowing around and the wax will soak right in. Waxing the rope and heating it to make the line absorb the wax is standard procedure by folks with rope making experience at the USNA workshop. This don't necessarily make it a rule cast in stone.

Pete
 
RE heat guns: I have a real heat gun. Good for peeling paint and setting your house on fire (and/or burning yourself!) It is So hot it will burn up the rope AND the model. May I recommend a hair dryer on low heat? The high heat setting will probably be too hot and the force of air too strong and could damage surrounding rigging and model parts. Patience with the low setting will probably do the trick. If you wax the line and heat it before it's on the model, then the high heat is fine. Just suspend the line with a weight at the bottom end to keep it from blowing around and the wax will soak right in. Waxing the rope and heating it to make the line absorb the wax is standard procedure by folks with rope making experience at the USNA workshop. This don't necessarily make it a rule cast in stone.

Pete
I melted a shroud in half with a heat gun AFTER ratlining. That sucked. It was hard to splice, especially since I didn't have ANY more line in that size. You have to know how to use one carefully.
 
By the way, at the Academy workshop, they coil the waxed "rope" and heat it in the microwave for a moment on "low"to melt the wax.
 
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