Schooner Rudder Control

[BJDaly]

This is my first post. I bought a very old wooden model of a schooner ship in an antique store. I guess early 1900's. The model measures 38 inches long by 48 inches high. I have never restored a model ship but I'm going to tackle this one.
The rudder is missing, including the post that connects the rudder to the steering mechanism on the deck. The steering mechanism itself is also missing. There is a narrow hollow copper pipe at the rear of the deck, that runs through the hull and emerges from the bottom of the hull where the rudder goes. However the pipe starts at the center line of the deck, but exits about 0.5 inch offset from the center line of the bottom of the hull.
I expected the pipe to exit on the center line of the hull so that a post that controls the rudder would align with the rudder.

Is the offset an error or is there a rudder control configuration that enables an offset post to connect to the rudder ?

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Was this copper pipe section perhaps a guide for a rod that formed a linkage to the rudder tiller?

 

[neptune]

G'day BJ, can you post a pic of the deck area where the rudder post goes and also a pic of where it comes out of the hull,
Best regards John,

 

[Uwek]

Yes - one or some photos of the situation and the model would be very helpful

 

[BJDaly]

Was this copper pipe section perhaps a guide for a rod that formed a linkage to the rudder tiller?

View attachment 284555

Yes, I believe its for a linkage rod of some kind to connect the rudder to the tiller. But the offset has me puzzled. I have taken some photos to better represent the offset. The top view shows the copper tube starting at the center line of the deck. In the bottom view I ran a white line to show the center line to help see the offset. The close up photo shows the offset I'm talking about. I expected the example wood rod to emerge exactly at the center line, not offset set as shown.

 

[BJDaly]

G'day BJ, can you post a pic of the deck area where the rudder post goes and also a pic of where it comes out of the hull,
Best regards John,

Hi John, I responded to the prior response from Darivs with photos.
Thanks
Brendan

 

[GAStan]

As old as that is its possible the hole was drilled with a manual drill such as a brace and bit. This could be a result of a simple error by the builder.

 

[BJDaly]

Attached is a photo of the Schooner. 48" high by 38" long

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Yes, I believe its for a linkage rod of some kind to connect the rudder to the tiller. But the offset has me puzzled. I have taken some photos to better represent the offset. The top view shows the copper tube starting at the center line of the deck. In the bottom view I ran a white line to show the center line to help see the offset. The close up photo shows the offset I'm talking about. I expected the example wood rod to emerge exactly at the center line, not offset set as shown.

It appears that the model maker simply offset the shaft which turns the rudder just to avoid drilling it through the keel. Having that tube run vertically all the way through the hull removes the need for a seal to prevent water from entering the hull.

 

[neptune]

G'day Brendan, I reckon its definitely coming through the keel, the piece of string is running down the starboard side of the keel, you only have to follow an imaginary line line down the port side of the keel to see that it comes through the keel although it looks like it is coming through slightly off center, I was wondering if maybe when the rudder was installed it might have been in a bad accident and moved over or bent a little bit, Brendan can you push the piece of dowell right up through the rudder tube, if you can it probably means that that it has been drilled slightly off center, and if you cannot it could mean the tube has been bent out of alignment, I was going to ask if there is any chance of seeing inside but from the photo's it looks like the deck is sealed down, hope this helps you,

best regards John.

 

[Brewerpaul]

That' looks like a fairly crude model, not up to the standards of Ships of Scale so my guess is that the builder simply missed the mark when he drilled.If you can drill or pull out the copper tube, I'd say do that and then just re drill it. If that's intended to be a sailing model, you'd need to put a new tube into the properly drilled hole

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

The model may be handmade, and not precise, but it also may be old and be valuable one who collects antiques because of its age. There are lots of old, shoddily made models out there, and there are lots of posts here and on MSW by people trying to restores wrecked ones. It's sort of a unique classification of ship modelling.

 

[BJDaly]

G'day Brendan, I reckon its definitely coming through the keel, the piece of string is running down the starboard side of the keel, you only have to follow an imaginary line line down the port side of the keel to see that it comes through the keel although it looks like it is coming through slightly off center, I was wondering if maybe when the rudder was installed it might have been in a bad accident and moved over or bent a little bit, Brendan can you push the piece of dowell right up through the rudder tube, if you can it probably means that that it has been drilled slightly off center, and if you cannot it could mean the tube has been bent out of alignment, I was going to ask if there is any chance of seeing inside but from the photo's it looks like the deck is sealed down, hope this helps you,

best regards John.




View attachment 284885

Hi John,
The wooden dowel easily slips through the copper tube and I'm able to rotate the dowel with little friction from the top/deck. I agree with the consensus opinion in the responses that the hole most likely was drilled off center in error due to lack of precision tools in the day. The tube is solidly in the hull, so I don't think it moved via an accident. So my first job is to fix that problem. The hull is solid. I've tried pulling the copper tube out but it will not budge. So my plan is to drill the bottom of hull on the LHS of the tube as shown in the photo above and try to maneuver the tube to the center. I'll use an 1/8" drill and drill holes around half the diameter. I will have to do some repair work to the hull afterwards. In the world of restoration of model ship is that an acceptable approach. ?
Regards
Brendan

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Hi BJDaly, you might consider living with the copper tube right where it is, considering the model was made that way and appears to be old. Perhaps upgrading the model with corrections may remove some of the charm and perhaps some of the value of an old, hand crafted model. If removing the tube risks damage to the hull, it may be best to leave it in place. Just thinking...

 

[neptune]

Hi John,
The wooden dowel easily slips through the copper tube and I'm able to rotate the dowel with little friction from the top/deck. I agree with the consensus opinion in the responses that the hole most likely was drilled off center in error due to lack of precision tools in the day. The tube is solidly in the hull, so I don't think it moved via an accident. So my first job is to fix that problem. The hull is solid. I've tried pulling the copper tube out but it will not budge. So my plan is to drill the bottom of hull on the LHS of the tube as shown in the photo above and try to maneuver the tube to the center. I'll use an 1/8" drill and drill holes around half the diameter. I will have to do some repair work to the hull afterwards. In the world of restoration of model ship is that an acceptable approach. ?
Regards
Brendan

G'day Brendan, I think that would be the way to go, and it would cause less damage to the model and if you plan on sailing her on the pond it would be crucial to steering her properly, its not like you are removing something that should be there you are only correcting something, I've redone a couple and sometimes you have to remodel or replace something that is wrong or missing, and seeing that the rudder itself is missing and you are going to replace i assume, I think if you are careful everything should be fine,

PS if you are only going to display the model you could keep it the way it is, but if you add the rudder then I think it would look really weird with the rudder at an angle to the keel line, maybe check with one of the Antique Stores and see what they think,

best regards john,

 

[Don Case]

I agree with Kurt on this one, but if you do decide to take the rudder tube out, what we did on our IOMs was to stick a soldering iron into the tube and heat it up. Heat from both ends. It's surprising how little heat it takes to soften the glue. The glue will soften enough way before the wood is harmed.

 

[Frank48]

G'day Brendan, credo che stia sicuramente arrivando attraverso la chiglia, il pezzo di spago sta scorrendo lungo il lato di dritta della chiglia, devi solo seguire una linea immaginaria lungo il lato sinistro della chiglia per vedere che esca la chiglia anche se sembra che stia venendo leggermente fuori centro, mi chiedevo se forse quando è stato installato il timone potrebbe aver avuto un brutto incidente e spostato o piegato un po', Brendan puoi spingere il pezzo di tassello a destra attraverso il tubo del timone, se puoi probabilmente significa che è stato forato leggermente fuori centro, e se non puoi potrebbe significare che il tubo è stato piegato fuori allineamento, stavo per chiedere se c'è qualche possibilità di vedere all'interno ma dalle foto sembra che il mazzo sia sigillato, spero che questo ti aiuti,

cordiali saluti Giovanni.




View attachment 284885

Buona sera , prova con L'acetone (smacchi unghie), vedi come va

 

[danielsje]

I am going to throw out a question…and I think you need more comment and research on this. That tube appears from the photos to be too far forward on the keel to effectively control a rudder mounted on the stern. I am not so sure it had anything to do with a rudder assembly but right now I don’t have alternative idea other than a center board assembly. I am just not convinced it is a rudder tube unless it was drastically misplaced by the builder…

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Was this built as an RC controlled sail boat by any chance?

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I am going to throw out a question…and I think you need more comment and research on this. That tube appears from the photos to be too far forward on the keel to effectively control a rudder mounted on the stern. I am not so sure it had anything to do with a rudder assembly but right now I don’t have alternative idea other than a center board assembly. I am just not convinced it is a rudder tube unless it was drastically misplaced by the builder…

Intriguing. If it was a centerboard mount, having the tube rise as high through the hull would still keep the water out. The model could still have been meant to float in water, and not just be for display.