Misidentified models of HMS Victory in NMM?

dafi

dafi

Joined
Mar 18, 2021
Messages
210
Points
253

As I never trust sources blindly, I think there are some misidentified models of the HMS Victory in NMM?
Both models always were the reasons for discussions of Victory´s side entry port, the forecastle and the poop - I always found both puzzling as there were some details that were always irritating me, but I never found out what exactly it was.

ZAZ0513 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66474.html
" A contemporary full hull model of the Victory (1765)"



ZAZ0517 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66478.html
"A contemporary(?) half block design model of the HMS Victory (1765)"


I always wondered about the proportions, but now I got the clue as I realised the position of the most aft gunports towards the quarter gallery - far too near together for the Victory.


If one takes the plan of HMS Dreadnought (Neptun-class) and puts it over the models, it fits perfectly.
ZAZ0196 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79987.html
"Plan showing the body plan, sternboard outline with some decoration detail, sheer lines with inboard detail and figurehead, and longitudinal half-breadth for 'Dreadnought' (1801)"



As a first rate the Victory had a greater lenght. The shorter second rates had a completely different allocation of the ports, that also results to a different positioning of a side entry port underneath the main channels. This leads either to a double row of steps or to the omission of the side entry port (both seen on plans on the NMM). Also the models and the plan show the slimmer lines of the bow.

Always intriguing the finds one can do - one just has to stare long enough at the details ...


Cheers, Daniel
 
Last edited:
To complete the cause, here is a plan of the Victory superimposed onto one of the models. And great surprise - the model lacks one gunport, one more fact for the identification as possible Neptune class.



ZAZ0121 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79912.html


This is the model Goodwin also shows in his books as Victory. Did he also get tricked by the name plate "Victory" and the figure head ?!?

My personal guess is, that the model was declared later on in its history to be a Vic. As there were apparently no contemporary models existing, someone changed on an existing Neptun-class model the figurehead and added the name, either by ignorance or by accepting the wrong class as a short-cut to have a nice HMS-Victory for someones collection.


Cheers, Daniel
 
Last edited:
I had some more research lately in the online archives of NMM, also creating a overview onto the plans of britisch three deckers from 1700 onwards. Those who have access to our german forum look here (registration necessary)

http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.co...er-Dreidecker-der-Royal-Navy-ab.html#msg83383

That gave me the help to further investigate into the topic of the "strange" "Victory"-models.

The Queen-class still had open galeries and a more voluminous heads, so out of quesion


Neptune -class:
The interesting bit about this class is the slow omission of the open aft galleries. Neptune 2 Temeraire 1 and Dreadnought none. Also the stern became more steep. Also for that class there was a lot of development going on, so that there are some variations in the gunports. So only then Dreadnought was to consider.

Also the Boyne class looked quite interesting, thus giving me two suspects


Dreadnought 1801 / Neptun-class
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79987.htmlZAZ0296
large.jpg

Scale: 1:48. Plan showing the body plan, sternboard outline with some decoration detail, sheer lines with inboard detail and figurehead, and longitudinal half-breadth for 'Dreadnought' (1801), a 98-gun Second Rate, three-decker, as build at Portsmouth Dockyard. Signed by Henry Peake [Master Shipwright, Portsmouth Dockyard, 1799-1803].
Date made 24 March 1802

Union 1811 / Boyne-class
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80037.htmlZAZ0246
large.jpg

Scale: 1:48. Plan showing the body plan, sheer lines, and longitudinal half-breadth for 'Union' (1811), a 98-gun Second Rate, three-decker, to be built at Plymouth Dockyard. Signed by John Henslow [surveyor of the Navy, 1784-1806] and William Rule [surveyor of the Navy, 1793-1813].
Date made 23 November 1801
 
A closer look to the Dreadnought reveals minor differences to the models in the bulkwards of forecastle and quarter deck.


Main reason of excluding the Dreadnought is the stern as it has only 8 windows and a different shape.

As the timbers are displayed in the draft, one can see the problems in integrity in the use of 8 windows and 4 gunports :)

Back to the black and yellow model. This one bears 9 windows.
Victory (1765); Warship; First rate; 100 guns
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66474.html
large.jpg




The plan and model of the Boyne´s stern also shows 9 windows and a very similar sillouhette:
'Boyne' (1810); 'Union' (1811)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80036.html
large.jpg


HMS Boyne (1810); Warship; 98 guns
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68233.html
large.jpg


If one matches the "Victory´s" stern with the plan, the fitting is surprisingly well



Also the stern-side view of the models presents the great resemblance and also bears the gunport that is missing in the plan.

Comparing the plan of the union with the model


Only differences are the missing gunport (1 but shown in the stern model), the difference in the bulk-wards step to the poop (2 shorter poop) and one more port in the forecastle (3).

The black-and-white model is even a much better fit as the perspective is much the same. Personally I would say: perfect even in all the details!


Personal conclusion:

The more I look at the subject, I am more and more sure that those two models do not represent the Victory, even though one bears the name and the figurehead of the Vic.

The black and yellow model exactly fits the Boyne-class, while the black an white one fits perfectly the plans of Union of 1812.

Cheers, XXXDAn
 
Last edited:
Very interesting research my friend - Are you in contact already with the NMM to discuss these information?
 
Yes I wrote them. I even got an answer :)

Dear Mr. Fischer,

Thank you for the information regarding the HMS Victory models.
We welcome scrutiny of the collection and we are happy to see such thriving interest in both the plans and ship model collections.
In regards to the identity of the models you have raised some important questions, and provided us with some interesting lines of investigation.
We will endeavour to investigate your suggestions through further detailed scrutiny of plans and models and update Collections Online accordingly.
Yours sincerely,

XXXX
Assistant Curator of the Ship Model Collection

I deleted the name of the curator
 
dafi said:
Yes I wrote them. I even got an answer :)

Dear Mr. Fischer,

Thank you for the information regarding the HMS Victory models.
We welcome scrutiny of the collection and we are happy to see such thriving interest in both the plans and ship model collections.
In regards to the identity of the models you have raised some important questions, and provided us with some interesting lines of investigation.
We will endeavour to investigate your suggestions through further detailed scrutiny of plans and models and update Collections Online accordingly.
Yours sincerely,

XXXX
Assistant Curator of the Ship Model Collection

I deleted the name of the curator
Click to expand...
I am looking forward, if they reply in future or even change the information on their web-site......
 
dafi said:
A closer look to the Dreadnought reveals minor differences to the models in the bulkwards of forecastle and quarter deck.


Main reason of excluding the Dreadnought is the stern as it has only 8 windows and a different shape.

As the timbers are displayed in the draft, one can see the problems in integrity in the use of 8 windows and 4 gunports :)

Back to the black and yellow model. This one bears 9 windows.
Victory (1765); Warship; First rate; 100 guns
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66474.html
large.jpg




The plan and model of the Boyne´s stern also shows 9 windows and a very similar sillouhette:
'Boyne' (1810); 'Union' (1811)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80036.html
large.jpg


HMS Boyne (1810); Warship; 98 guns
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68233.html
large.jpg


If one matches the "Victory´s" stern with the plan, the fitting is surprisingly well



Also the stern-side view of the models presents the great resemblance and also bears the gunport that is missing in the plan.

Comparing the plan of the union with the model


Only differences are the missing gunport (1 but shown in the stern model), the difference in the bulk-wards step to the poop (2 shorter poop) and one more port in the forecastle (3).

The black-and-white model is even a much better fit as the perspective is much the same. Personally I would say: perfect even in all the details!


Personal conclusion:

The more I look at the subject, I am more and more sure that those two models do not represent the Victory, even though one bears the name and the figurehead of the Vic.

The black and yellow model exactly fits the Boyne-class, while the black an white one fits perfectly the plans of Union of 1812.

Cheers, XXXDAn
Click to expand...
Dafi , my Dear friend :)
you have done Very impressive and interesting research my friend.
I will keep following with great curiosity
 
dafi said:
Yes I wrote them. I even got an answer :)

Dear Mr. Fischer,

Thank you for the information regarding the HMS Victory models.
We welcome scrutiny of the collection and we are happy to see such thriving interest in both the plans and ship model collections.
In regards to the identity of the models you have raised some important questions, and provided us with some interesting lines of investigation.
We will endeavour to investigate your suggestions through further detailed scrutiny of plans and models and update Collections Online accordingly.
Yours sincerely,

XXXX
Assistant Curator of the Ship Model Collection

I deleted the name of the curator
Click to expand...
I would have told them they can have the information as long as they put the models back on display!!!
 
Nothing happened so far. Seeing them selling the HMS Boyne, one could think, do not touch the name, a Victory will give better offers than an Union class ;-)

XXXDAn
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top