HMS Victory colour scheme

[Resoian]

About to start my next build a 1/200 mid section model of HMS Victory as part of my build up to a much better quality 1/150 Mamoli kit

These cheap Chinese kits have their uses for me it's about developing my skills rather than a scale perfect model.
But in getting started this has already brought up a question what colour scheme to go for I've looked at the posts on here about this subject.

I know the traditional yellow on black Hull is very pleasing to the eye and is how i always think of the great lady but thinking i will have ago at the newish colour scheme to this end I have lashed up a mockup of my build and experimented with some of the shelf colours please allow for my poor photography skills but any comments on the following pictures would be appreciated

I'm erring towards Tamiya flesh XF-15 and Revell 09 Anthracite as looks better in natural light.

 

[Don Case]

I've wondered about this when people take their ships outside to take pictures. Shouldn't you try and put the ship where it's going to live and adjust the colors for that location and light? And unfortunately asking for people's opinions doesn't work because everyone's monitor isn't the same so I'm probably not seeing what you're seeing. I think this is one of those times when the internet can't be much help.

 

[Resoian]

I've wondered about this when people take their ships outside to take pictures. Shouldn't you try and put the ship where it's going to live and adjust the colors for that location and light? And unfortunately asking for people's opinions doesn't work because everyone's monitor isn't the same so I'm probably not seeing what you're seeing. I think this is one of those times when the internet can't be much help.

Good comment we are so used to the internet answer our ?s.

I guess I was also trying to get a feel for others who are considering using the colours now applied to the real thing in Pompey, and which off the shelf paints that they are using.
There's a model shop in the UK selling a paint kit for HMS Victory but its the "old" yellow on black scheme and when I asked them they say they are not at the moment supplying the new colour scheme as a kit and couldn't offer advice on what colours to use.
From other threads this seems to be causing a bit of a marmite moment.

 

[ChrisP]

I understand the paint experts have concluded that she was painted a dull pink/orange hue, but I fail to see how they can be sure that layers of the original paint (that have since been covered with fresh and incorrect paint at various times) would necessarily have retained their original colour.

 

[HPeterB]

I've wondered about this when people take their ships outside to take pictures. Shouldn't you try and put the ship where it's going to live and adjust the colors for that location and light? And unfortunately asking for people's opinions doesn't work because everyone's monitor isn't the same so I'm probably not seeing what you're seeing. I think this is one of those times when the internet can't be much help.

In days of old when broadcast tv was concerned with the quality of the video images…there was a job on the crew called “Senior Video Engineer” whose job was to set the chroma level of the monitors in the studio. Because everyone sees color differently, the colors that the SVO saw was considered correct. That job in the studio was eliminated because of the automation of cameras and monitors. The key here… everyone sees color differently.

 

[Thomas]

Good comment we are so used to the internet answer our ?s.

I guess I was also trying to get a feel for others who are considering using the colours now applied to the real thing in Pompey, and which off the shelf paints that they are using.
There's a model shop in the UK selling a paint kit for HMS Victory but its the "old" yellow on black scheme and when I asked them they say they are not at the moment supplying the new colour scheme as a kit and couldn't offer advice on what colours to use.
From other threads this seems to be causing a bit of a marmite moment.

I agree with the comments--everyone has a different eye and considering no one knows the exact colours used on the original ship it's really a matter of your taste.

Speaking of taste, what is a marmite moment? Does it mean dividing the room? Just wondering because I'm a heretic and like marmite and also think that Victory models should be left natural to show off the wood grain of the hull.

 

[HPeterB]

I agree with the comments--everyone has a different eye and considering no one knows the exact colours used on the original ship it's really a matter of your taste.

Speaking of taste, what is a marmite moment? Does it mean dividing the room? Just wondering because I'm a heretic and like marmite and also think that Victory models should be left natural to show off the wood grain of the hull.

I know what you mean. I’ve had difficulty finding the appropriate colors for some of the models that I’ve built in the past. I’m not a stickler for “ exact” but I do like to have my models approach “reasonably realistic”. The ship I’m currently working on, I’m about to add the ship wheel and the instructions don’t indicate the colors of the components. Since this is a WW2 PT boat most of the photos that I’ve found were black and white. That’s great if all you need is the contrast or tone but not good for our purpose. I finally found the actual wheel in color while watching a film created by Elco Marine. (Giant Killers). I’ve got a link to it in my build log if you’d like to see it. The shot is really quick so if I’d blinked I would have missed it.

 

[Bryian]

I think any experienced model builder could colour match the latest Victory colour scheme.

 

[Bob Ellis]

As a Pompey resident and neighbour of Pete Goodwin I'll offer mine, and his, opinion.
The carpenter's manifest states 51 parts white, 50 parts yellow. (or possibly the other way round!) which gives us a pale lemon yellow. It's impossible to know exactly what the white and yellow actually were like, but we're not talking Dulux!! This does not, however, give us the 'Saturday morning pavement' red wine and pizza that she is currently vandalised with. I theorise that they have failed to take into account that the traces of red may be the original (?) colour as at Cape St Vincent after which she was severely damaged and laid up as a hospital ship moored on the Thames until a rebuild prior to Trafalgar when the Nelson chequer was applied. So she has never been painted the correct colour, the ochre was equally inaccurate! If I were ever to build her I would opt for pale yellow and dark grey, Nelson's choice!

 

[Bryian]

Bob,
good comments and it sounds like you know your stuff, but surely the lab technicians that analysed the paint scrapings would have taken this into consideration before updating the latest scheme ?.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Bob,
good comments and it sounds like you know your stuff, but surely the lab technicians that analysed the paint scrapings would have taken this into consideration before updating the latest scheme ?.

They only stated that they found traces of red pigment. Remember that these were not 'ship' guys. I've watched the analysis video many times, and having some experience with laboratory analysis planning and practice I didn't consider that the plan was complete, too many parameters were not included, a sort of half job. The new curator says 'he can't see the pink'!?? Prior to this position he was curator of the Viking Museum in York, a sort of fairground ride in a model village. As an authority on Napoleonic era vessels I question his ability. Peter's knowledge of Victory is beyond question, before the current works he supervised virtually an entire rebuild, I'm sure you're familiar with his books on the subject. (I found to my own cost it's best not to raise the subject with him nowadays!! If you're lucky you only get a frosty silence!)
He had already completed considerable research not only with Victory but the fleet, the war, the histories of the vessels concerned, and of Nelson. Not only do I trust his judgement I have also seen the manifest and the colours categorically do not make the current scheme.
It's a shame that Pete is no longer there, at the time Victory was still a commissioned ship under the command of a captain. The new captain during this time basically clashed with him and engineered his removal.
I have a vague memory that you had visited the dockyard? If so you've seen the colour, it really isn't feasible that anybody would choose that colour....For the entire fleet???
I've had a few disagreements online regarding the changes of colour during Victory's history. The red was something I dug up with my own research, I must have a copy somewhere. But there are plenty who refute it.
Personally I don't see how anyone can argue with the manifest. I wonder what would have happened if the carpenter had said to Nelson "I thought it could do with a hint of red, what do you reckon??"
So, no mate, I'm pretty sure of my ground on this, and zero faith with 'new boy'. Hope you're keeping well.

 

[ConsNZ]

Pardon me if I chuckle a little. When colour is discussed, which colour is it that the focus is on? is it the QC batch (did the British Navy actually QC colours prior to approval - 'near nuf lad, dont splash the admiral')?, the on site applied colour?, the same applied colour after (example) 3 months exposure?, 6 months exposure?, under what environmental conditions etc? Were the pigments used of the utmost quality and were they ground correctly during process of manufacture? Paint fades rather quickly, more so when subjected to marine or tropical conditions, also depending on the amount, if any, pre-paint preparation was given. A colour once applied will vary considerably when viewed in different under light, eg morning, midday, evening, summer, autumn, winter, spring. direct sun or shade. Drying times and conditions may also effect the final colour rendition. Personally I find determining any given colour to be a bit of a 'tsk, tsk, tsk situation. Back in the days of "Victory" there was no BS4800, 5252, 2660 or RAL colour standards with which a manufacturer was compelled to colour match to. Exposure to light will fade anything and everything. So to me there is immense value in "close enough is near enough" as long as it is pleasing to the eye of the model maker. I would also go so far as to say that the Victory colour(s) would differ between port and starboard. Anyway, had my little rant now please try not to ban me from this site.

 

[IoannisK]

I think at the end of the day it's just the personal taste. I am using vallejo's yellow ochre for my Victory, but before that I was thinking this photo's vibrant yellow for the very nice contrast with the black.


At the end I found it a little too much.

 

[Stuart Little]

I bought some Admiralty Paints yellow ochre from CMB, and found it to be the present 'formulation' (mutation?). I planned to build a Victory, but not this colour, so it's a case of re-tinting it. But now I've read Bob Ellis's comments I'm inclined to go with the 'lemony' yellow - whenever I get to it!

 

[Bob Ellis]

Pardon me if I chuckle a little. When colour is discussed, which colour is it that the focus is on? is it the QC batch (did the British Navy actually QC colours prior to approval - 'near nuf lad, dont splash the admiral')?, the on site applied colour?, the same applied colour after (example) 3 months exposure?, 6 months exposure?, under what environmental conditions etc? Were the pigments used of the utmost quality and were they ground correctly during process of manufacture? Paint fades rather quickly, more so when subjected to marine or tropical conditions, also depending on the amount, if any, pre-paint preparation was given. A colour once applied will vary considerably when viewed in different under light, eg morning, midday, evening, summer, autumn, winter, spring. direct sun or shade. Drying times and conditions may also effect the final colour rendition. Personally I find determining any given colour to be a bit of a 'tsk, tsk, tsk situation. Back in the days of "Victory" there was no BS4800, 5252, 2660 or RAL colour standards with which a manufacturer was compelled to colour match to. Exposure to light will fade anything and everything. So to me there is immense value in "close enough is near enough" as long as it is pleasing to the eye of the model maker. I would also go so far as to say that the Victory colour(s) would differ between port and starboard. Anyway, had my little rant now please try not to ban me from this site.

See above thread. As I said, Dulux it aint! Also it would help if you've seen Victory up close and personal??? This is a long debate running on many forums and builders want to receive advice as well as offer opinions. Such is the blind acceptance of the new scheme companies have provided a specific colour mix. And, no, degradation of the colours appears to have been largely ignored. As a Historic Dockyard member and regular visitor I see the ship weekly, The city is rightfully proud of it's naval heritage, as a group we don't like it, and my description "Saturday morning pavement" is heartfelt and damned accurate! It's that bad. (I think we can safely assume port and starboard were the same colour, it didn't come from different 5 litre tins!)

 

[Bryian]

The brightness of the red is quite surprising. I would have assumed it should be a dull red oxide rather than fire engine red.


.

 

[ConsNZ]

See above thread. As I said, Dulux it aint! Also it would help if you've seen Victory up close and personal??? This is a long debate running on many forums and builders want to receive advice as well as offer opinions. Such is the blind acceptance of the new scheme companies have provided a specific colour mix. And, no, degradation of the colours appears to have been largely ignored. As a Historic Dockyard member and regular visitor I see the ship weekly, The city is rightfully proud of it's naval heritage, as a group we don't like it, and my description "Saturday morning pavement" is heartfelt and damned accurate! It's that bad. (I think we can safely assume port and starboard were the same colour, it didn't come from different 5 litre tins!)

No offence intended and apologies if that has been how my statement may have been taken. I did voice my opinion and advice regarding paint and colour, plus accuracy and determination of fastness etc. My opinion is based on my 43 years in the paint industry both for domestic, industrial/heavy duty coatings, marine, automotive and aviation coatings. My suggestion, take a square of tin foil, tape it an exposed section of paint. Every month open up the tin foil, with a damp rag wipe over the hidden and exposed area - you'll start to see how colour intensity changes when exposed to atmospheric conditions and UV .

 

[Resoian]

Thank you for all the replies to a very emotive subject which can launch a thousand debates.
I read the research by the prof and university that "discovered this colour scheme" the evidence is pretty solid but yes everyone sees colour differently personally I like the yellow on black. But I'm using this cheap Chinese 1/200 mid section build as a trial before I launch into the 1/150 mamoli kit.
For this kit I've decided to try this "new scheme" and will be starting a new build log shortly.

 

[Resoian]

I bought some Admiralty Paints yellow ochre from CMB, and found it to be the present 'formulation' (mutation?). I planned to build a Victory, but not this colour, so it's a case of re-tinting it. But now I've read Bob Ellis's comments I'm inclined to go with the 'lemony' yellow - whenever I get to it!

Hi Stuart I did contact CMB and the nice email by return confirms they have not got the new scheme colours in stock,

 

[Resoian]

I agree with the comments--everyone has a different eye and considering no one knows the exact colours used on the original ship it's really a matter of your taste.

Speaking of taste, what is a marmite moment? Does it mean dividing the room? Just wondering because I'm a heretic and like marmite and also think that Victory models should be left natural to show off the wood grain of the hull.

Hi Thomas,
Marmite (vegemite) you love it or hate it no middle ground.

My current modeling skill would not allow me to make a nude model I need a bit of filler and paint to cover up my mistakes. But that why I'm working on these cheap Chinese kits first to build up my skills. I would at some point like to make an admiralty board model that shows of all the ribs.