Authenticity of Spanish galleon model details: specifically trenails. (trennels, nails)

[CumbrianLad]

Hi. I realize that it may be a bit daft or pompous to be discussing the authenticity of the brass trenails (nails) used on my wooden 'San Francisco II' model, but it's bugging me!

Around the hull, the instructions call for 0.7 mm pins to be inserted into the planks. Not only would that make them 63mm diameter full scale, they would never be visible on the actual ship. From what I gather, in the 16th century, Spanish shipwrights specified wooden or iron trenails. They would look nice on the model, but I don't know whether to do it or not. Brass is wrong. Seeing them is wrong.

Then again, the entire hull above the waterline would originally be coated in tar and maybe even canvas. Below the waterline would be a sealant and fish fat to deter parasite infestation... I'm going to (satin) varnish the lot, so that's not realistic either!

On the decks I chose to use a centre punch for plank trenails and when filled with varnish, they show up as a slightly darker tone of the rest of the deck. That, I feel is quite authentic.

What do you think? I could use the pins to help clad the strakes onto the hull, but I'd prefer to snip them and punch them in a bit prior to sanding and use a wood filler.

I'm torn between pretty and semi-authentic!

 

[Frank48]

Ciao. Mi rendo conto che potrebbe essere un po' sciocco o pomposo discutere dell'autenticità dei chiodi (chiodi) in ottone usati sul mio modello in legno "San Francisco II", ma mi dà fastidio!

Intorno allo scafo, le istruzioni includono l'inserimento di perni da 0,7 mm nelle tavole. Non solo ciò renderebbe 63 mm diametro a fondo scala, ma non li mai visibili sulla nave reale. Da quanto ho appreso, nel XVI secolo i maestri d'ascia spagnoli specificavano trapani di legno o di ferro. Starebbero bene sul modello, ma non così se farlo o meno. L'ottone è sbagliato. Vederli è sbagliato.

Poi di nuovo, l'intero scafo sopra la linea di galleggiamento sarebbe stato originariamente ricoperto di catrame e forse anche di tela. Sotto la linea di galleggiamento ci sarebbe un sigillante e grasso di pesce per scoraggiare l'infestazione da parassiti... Vernicierò (satinato) il lotto, quindi neanche questo è realistico!

Sulle tavole ho scelto di usare un punzone centrale per i trenails della plancia e una volta riempite di vernice, si presentano come un tono leggermente più scuro del resto del mazzo. Questo credo sia abbastanza autentico.

Cosa ne pensi? Potrei usare i perni per aiutare a rivestire i fasciami sullo scafo, ma preferirei tagliarli e perforarli un po' prima di carteggiare e usare uno stucco per legno.

Sono combattuto tra il bello e il semi-autentico!

questo è un documento del Museo Naval Madrid

 

[CumbrianLad]

That's really interesting. It clearly shows that there was a specification for 'nails', or at least for iron nails. Looking at it, they had different nails for different duties, as I'd expect, being an engineer.

I don't speak Spanish, and the resolution of the images doesn't let me read it and translate it.

I love the image, though and thank you for sharing.

The last picture seems to show heat treatment for the nails. Is that right? Were Spanish shipwrights applying different heat treatments to some nails? As an engineer, that's fascinating.

Anyway, what do you think? Should I show these pretty nails or not?

 

[Frank48]

That's really interesting. It clearly shows that there was a specification for 'nails', or at least for iron nails. Looking at it, they had different nails for different duties, as I'd expect, being an engineer.

I don't speak Spanish, and the resolution of the images doesn't let me read it and translate it.

I love the image, though and thank you for sharing.

The last picture seems to show heat treatment for the nails. Is that right? Were Spanish shipwrights applying different heat treatments to some nails? As an engineer, that's fascinating.

Anyway, what do you think? Should I show these pretty nails or not?

I thank you for the appreciation of the news, I would say yes for the bolting

 

[Frank48]

Vi ringrazio per l'apprezzamento della notizia, direi di sì per la chiodatura

 

[CumbrianLad]

Thank you. I will add these details to my galleon. I'll add rigging.

 

[Jaime R]

Good evening CumbrianLand,
Let me put here the link to Academia.edu where Mr. Cayetano Hormaechea has published several books regarding Spanish Galleons and many other stuff. It is fully accurate and free to download. Unfortunately it is only in Spanish.
Anyway it could help.

GALLEONS - CAYETANO HORMAECHEA

Hughs
Jaime

 

[Jaime R]

In the Volume 1, you can find everithing related to Function, documentation, design and construction.

Los galeones españoles del siglo XVII - Tomo I

Los galeones españoles del siglo XVII - Tomo I

www.academia.edu

 

[CumbrianLad]

Thanks Jaime R. I'll take a look. Google might be OK except for some of the ship part names. Much appreciated!

Edit: I have found the parts that I need and translated them. Fantastic! I will not be showing the nails on my model. They are 3 times bigger than the real nails, the wrong metal and would be covered with tar. I think that I will also paint the hull below the waterline a whitish colour that would be realistic for the tar as described in that book. (I may change my mind about that and build her as she would have looked before the tar was applied... that's a whole load of beautiful wood to cover with paint!)

I also found some very good details of joints in the keel and breakwater construction that I will add with a craft knife. I will spend more time translating and reading the whole book.

I was surprised that iron was used in Spanish Galleons as early as the 16th century. This is because wooden trenails were still being used in English ships until the 17th or even 18th centuries. I found this reference https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1180&context=anth_fac that clearly states that the Santo Cristo De Burgos used iron nails recovered from de-commissioning a much earlier galleon.

I've just seen your completed models. I built 'Bluenose' but it got smashed when I moved house! A sad day.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Hi. I realize that it may be a bit daft or pompous to be discussing the authenticity of the brass trenails (nails) used on my wooden 'San Francisco II' model, but it's bugging me!

Around the hull, the instructions call for 0.7 mm pins to be inserted into the planks. Not only would that make them 63mm diameter full scale, they would never be visible on the actual ship. From what I gather, in the 16th century, Spanish shipwrights specified wooden or iron trenails. They would look nice on the model, but I don't know whether to do it or not. Brass is wrong. Seeing them is wrong.

Then again, the entire hull above the waterline would originally be coated in tar and maybe even canvas. Below the waterline would be a sealant and fish fat to deter parasite infestation... I'm going to (satin) varnish the lot, so that's not realistic either!

On the decks I chose to use a centre punch for plank trenails and when filled with varnish, they show up as a slightly darker tone of the rest of the deck. That, I feel is quite authentic.

What do you think? I could use the pins to help clad the strakes onto the hull, but I'd prefer to snip them and punch them in a bit prior to sanding and use a wood filler.

I'm torn between pretty and semi-authentic!

You are correct, brass is wrong. However, you can blacken brass to make them appear as iron nails. Wash the brass pins with alcohol, don't touch them with your fingers, and place them in some Brass Black fluid in a separate bowl for 2 minutes. Rinse them with cold water and dry. The blackened surface will take about 24 hours to harden up. Rubbing them softly with a cloth will buff the surface of the brass to a charcoal gray color. If you buff too soon you could wipe the black off, revealing the golden brass underneath.

As for trenails, most are too small and blend in too well to be seen a model this small. You could simply take a mechanical pencil and draw tiny dots of you want to add some detail. The marks are made permanent are protected with a coat of lacquer or semi-gloss varnish. Krylon Satin Finish #1232 is excellent at sealing the wood and bringing out the color. There are so many other finishing options also.

The San Francisco II model is a simplified model suited for beginners, so you can add lots of details from research and make it a truly great model. I have one sitting on the shelf waiting to be built.

 

[CumbrianLad]

DARIVS ARCHITECTUS. Thanks for that. That gives me an alternative idea. On the deck planks, I used a centre punch, tapped it gently to make conical indentations a bit less than 0.5mm, so 40mm full scale. Applying satin self-levelling aqueous varnish fills these and gives the impression of nails 'corked' with wood. I liked it and felt it was maore authentic. From the Spanish treatise on galleons supplied by Jaime R and referenced by Frank 48, it's the size of the pins that trouble me, as well as the fact that they would be plugged and coated in pitch, not to mention the wrong metal.

Latin? I haven't done that since school almost 40 years ago! I'm MARCVS, at that rate! Tibi gratias ago pro consilio tuo... I think!

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

DARIVS ARCHITECTUS. Thanks for that. That gives me an alternative idea. On the deck planks, I used a centre punch, tapped it gently to make conical indentations a bit less than 0.5mm, so 40mm full scale. Applying satin self-levelling aqueous varnish fills these and gives the impression of nails 'corked' with wood. I liked it and felt it was maore authentic. From the Spanish treatise on galleons supplied by Jaime R and referenced by Frank 48, it's the size of the pins that trouble me, as well as the fact that they would be plugged and coated in pitch, not to mention the wrong metal.

Latin? I haven't done that since school almost 40 years ago! I'm MARCVS, at that rate! Tibi gratias ago pro consilio tuo... I think!

I had a similar idea, but a nail set which I had was too large a circle for my model's scale. A cut off large hypodermic needle makes a smaller ring. Paul (DocAttner) silver soldered a piece of a large hypodermic needle onto the tip of a soldering iron and made circular burn marks that really look good on the hull of his Wasa. FOr deck planking, I just used a mechanical pencil. Once lacquered, the marks faded slightly and looked more subtle, and did not stand out too much. Filling punch holes with varnish works well too. Please post pictures of this technique! Bene venisti!

 

[Don Case]

You are correct, brass is wrong. However, you can blacken brass to make them appear as iron nails. Wash the brass pins with alcohol, don't touch them with your fingers, and place them in some Brass Black fluid in a separate bowl for 2 minutes. Rinse them with cold water and dry. The blackened surface will take about 24 hours to harden up. Rubbing them softly with a cloth will buff the surface of the brass to a charcoal gray color. If you buff too soon you could wipe the black off, revealing the golden brass underneath.

As for trenails, most are too small and blend in too well to be seen a model this small. You could simply take a mechanical pencil and draw tiny dots of you want to add some detail. The marks are made permanent are protected with a coat of lacquer or semi-gloss varnish. Krylon Satin Finish #1232 is excellent at sealing the wood and bringing out the color. There are so many other finishing options also.

The San Francisco II model is a simplified model suited for beginners, so you can add lots of details from research and make it a truly great model. I have one sitting on the shelf waiting to be built.

View attachment 287446View attachment 287449

A bit of a hijack, can you blacken brass that is already on the ship without harming/coloring the wood?

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

A bit of a hijack, can you blacken brass that is already on the ship without harming/coloring the wood?

I had to paint mine with a tiny paintbrush when some of them had the blackening wear thin. You could use a brush to apply some blackening acid. The fresh acid won't discolor the wood, but it the droplet of acid contacts brass and becomes black itself, it will. Using acid on installed nails would be delicate work. (I've done it occasionally). You would have to dab fresh water until the re-blackened heads to neutralize and remove the acid.

 

[Juan María Riera]

Hola. Me doy cuenta de que puede ser un poco tonto o pomposo discutir la autenticidad de los clavos de latón utilizados en mi modelo de madera 'San Francisco II', ¡pero me está molestando!

Alrededor del casco, las instrucciones requieren que se inserten pasadores de 0,7 mm en los tablones. Eso no solo los haría de 63 mm de diámetro a escala completa, sino que nunca serían visibles en el barco real. Por lo que deduzco, en el siglo XVI, los armadores españoles especificaron trenails de madera o de hierro. Le quedarían bien a la modelo, pero no sé si hacerlo o no. El latón está mal. Verlos está mal.

Por otra parte, todo el casco por encima de la línea de flotación originalmente estaría cubierto de alquitrán y tal vez incluso de lona. Debajo de la línea de flotación habría un sellador y grasa de pescado para disuadir la infestación de parásitos... Voy a barnizar (satinar) el lote, ¡así que eso tampoco es realista!

En las cubiertas, opté por usar un punzón central para las trenzas de tablones y, cuando se rellenan con barniz, se muestra como un tono ligeramente más oscuro que el resto de la cubierta. Eso, siento que es bastante auténtico.

¿Qué piensas? Podría usar los pasadores para ayudar a revestir las tracas en el casco, pero preferiría cortarlas y perforarlas un poco antes de lijarlas y usar un relleno para madera.

¡Estoy dividida entre bonita y semiauténtica!

Cuando hice este barco usé clavos de latón pero sin la cabeza, luego cuando tengo lijado bien el casco

Hola. Me doy cuenta de que puede ser un poco tonto o pomposo discutir la autenticidad de los clavos de latón utilizados en mi modelo de madera 'San Francisco II', ¡pero me está molestando!

Alrededor del casco, las instrucciones requieren que se inserten pasadores de 0,7 mm en los tablones. Eso no solo los haría de 63 mm de diámetro a escala completa, sino que nunca serían visibles en el barco real. Por lo que deduzco, en el siglo XVI, los armadores españoles especificaron trenails de madera o de hierro. Le quedarían bien a la modelo, pero no sé si hacerlo o no. El latón está mal. Verlos está mal.

Por otra parte, todo el casco por encima de la línea de flotación originalmente estaría cubierto de alquitrán y tal vez incluso de lona. Debajo de la línea de flotación habría un sellador y grasa de pescado para disuadir la infestación de parásitos... Voy a barnizar (satinar) el lote, ¡así que eso tampoco es realista!

En las cubiertas, opté por usar un punzón central para las trenzas de tablones y, cuando se rellenan con barniz, se muestran como un tono ligeramente más oscuro que el resto de la cubierta. Eso, siento que es bastante auténtico.

¿Qué piensas? Podría usar los pasadores para ayudar a revestir las tracas en el casco, pero preferiría cortarlas y perforarlas un poco antes de lijarlas y usar un relleno para madera.

¡Estoy dividida entre bonita y semiauténtica!

Cuando hice este barco hice el claveteado con latón de 0,6 quitándole la cabeza a los clavos y clavando sin llegar al límite y luego, con un pincel empapado en ácido, lo pasé por las puntas y en horas de verdura, acabo de clavarlos y queda muy bien con el color de la madera y el barniz. Pero ya veo que tienes muchas soluciones y puedes escogerá

 

[Juan María Riera]

Cuando hice este barco usé clavos de latón pero sin la cabeza, luego cuando tengo lijado bien el casco

Cuando hice este barco hice el claveteado con latón de 0,6 quitándole la cabeza a los clavos y clavando sin llegar al límite y luego, con un pincel empapado en ácido, lo pasé por las puntas y en horas de verdura, acabo de clavarlos y queda muy bien con el color de la madera y el barniz. Pero ya veo que tienes muchas soluciones y puedes elegir

Verdea, no verdura

 

[CumbrianLad]

Cuando hice este barco usé clavos de latón pero sin la cabeza, luego cuando tengo lijado bien el casco

Cuando hice este barco hice el claveteado con latón de 0,6 quitándole la cabeza a los clavos y clavando sin llegar al límite y luego, con un pincel empapado en ácido, lo pasé por las puntas y en horas de verdura, acabo de clavarlos y queda muy bien con el color de la madera y el barniz. Pero ya veo que tienes muchas soluciones y puedes escogerá

Gracias por tus pensamientos.

 

[bernabe]

Look at the Red Bay replica. Ton of photos of real work. http://www.albaola.com/es/site/proceso-de-construccion
And search red bay in flickr

 

[Juan María Riera]

Hi. I realize that it may be a bit daft or pompous to be discussing the authenticity of the brass trenails (nails) used on my wooden 'San Francisco II' model, but it's bugging me!

Around the hull, the instructions call for 0.7 mm pins to be inserted into the planks. Not only would that make them 63mm diameter full scale, they would never be visible on the actual ship. From what I gather, in the 16th century, Spanish shipwrights specified wooden or iron trenails. They would look nice on the model, but I don't know whether to do it or not. Brass is wrong. Seeing them is wrong.

Por otra parte, todo el casco por encima de la línea de flotación originalmente estaría cubierto de alquitrán y tal vez incluso de lona. Debajo de la línea de flotación habría un sellador y grasa de pescado para disuadir la infestación de parásitos... Voy a barnizar (satinar) el lote, ¡así que eso tampoco es realista!

En las cubiertas, opté por usar un punzón central para las trenzas de tablones y, cuando se rellenan con barniz, se muestran como un tono ligeramente más oscuro que el resto de la cubierta. Eso, siento que es bastante auténtico.

¿Qué piensas? Podría usar los pasadores parDa ayudar a revestir las tracas en el casco, pero preferiría cortarlas y perforarlas un poco antes de lijarlas y usar un relleno para madera.

¡Estoy dividida entre bonita y semiauténtica!

 

[Juan María Riera]

Lo que decidas estará bien. No se las dimensiones de tu modelo, pero a mí en estos modelos con 1 m. de diámetro, procuro usar clavos de madera del mismo color que la traca, queda muy bien y una vez lijado todo el casco apenas se notan. Esa clavazón de madera se usaba mucho por aquellos tiempos en que el hierro era de muy mala calidad. Saludos