Hi everyone.
Does anyone know why the San Felipe from ZHL is so much cheeper than their other kits in the same size?
Does anyone know why the San Felipe from ZHL is so much cheeper than their other kits in the same size?
My guess is cheaper materials for one. Also, the kit appears to be a copy of the Panart kit, so they probably did not develop the plans themselves, saving money up front, which has been demonstrated on MSW forum by direct comparison of the two sets of kit drawings. As an owner of an older, 1989 vintage Panart model, I can tell you that the hardwood in that kit is very good quality. The ship itself was never a real ship, but in fact was by many accounts the result of a model ship company's design some time in the 1960's, and is supposed to generally represent a class of first rate Spanish ships. The kit states it was a ship from the 1690's, but the model style is from the 1740's or later based on it's features. The history of the ship's battles is just a fiction, repeated and expanded upon by model kit companies as more and more models were produced. The ship has no basis in history any more than the Black Pearl, which in 50 years people will be claiming was a real ship because it was in several movies.
Is it worth the extra money to buy the Panart model over ZHL? That's your decision. Since there is strong evidence that the kit was copied from Panart, and that the wood is not the same quality, perhaps you would choose the Panart model. If this discussion were on the MSW forum, you would be banned outright for even talking about any ZHL model, as that is against their policy there. In fact, if they even learn that you spoke about the possibility of purchasing the ZHL model HERE on THIS forum, you would be banned from MSW forum. That's exactly what they did to me, which is a shame because I had contributed a lot there in my first build log.
Is it worth the extra money to buy the Panart model over ZHL? That's your decision. Since there is strong evidence that the kit was copied from Panart, and that the wood is not the same quality, perhaps you would choose the Panart model. If this discussion were on the MSW forum, you would be banned outright for even talking about any ZHL model, as that is against their policy there. In fact, if they even learn that you spoke about the possibility of purchasing the ZHL model HERE on THIS forum, you would be banned from MSW forum. That's exactly what they did to me, which is a shame because I had contributed a lot there in my first build log.
Thank you for a very detailed answer
. i didn't know that was such a extreme thing to talk about but I understand if its an exact copy and they dont have a license.
Quite understandable considering where its from. Which scale is the Panart?
. i didn't know that was such a extreme thing to talk about but I understand if its an exact copy and they dont have a license.Quite understandable considering where its from. Which scale is the Panart?
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Any company, Chinese or other wise, who steal another companies intellectual property should be exposed, shamed, ostracized. this should include stealing information from nautical books and plans. It is not the fault of someone new to this hobby that they buy a rip off Chinese kit but it is good that 'Lt. Strand' should ask the question. We should all try to support the honest manufactures who pay their dues.
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this should include stealing information from nautical books and plans.
there seems to be an area of a gray blur between research and plagiarism how does one know when the line has been crossed? how much information is ok to use ( fair use) aside from an exact copy?
i have used a number of plans as reference and drew my own plan based on other plans.
i have used books, archaeological field reports, manuscripts, web sites, google search, forum topics and images to reconstruct a ship.
who is the judge to make such a call? if you are going to exposed, shamed, ostracized you better be darn sure you know exactly what you doing, Perhaps a legal degree in international copyright laws.
there seems to be an area of a gray blur between research and plagiarism how does one know when the line has been crossed? how much information is ok to use ( fair use) aside from an exact copy?
i have used a number of plans as reference and drew my own plan based on other plans.
i have used books, archaeological field reports, manuscripts, web sites, google search, forum topics and images to reconstruct a ship.
who is the judge to make such a call? if you are going to exposed, shamed, ostracized you better be darn sure you know exactly what you doing, Perhaps a legal degree in international copyright laws.
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Hi Steve,#
I agree with you, using books, archaeological field reports, manuscripts to produce your own plans is I expect what most legitimate companies do when they produce a model kit, I cannot see how else they would. But that is not really what I was saying, I think it was the cutter 'Lady Nelson' that Kurt was referring to in the MSW exposé. The 'Lady Nelson' was a factious cutter designed from scratch, yet ZHL produced a kit identical to that produced by Victory Models. This I am sure even Perry Mason could not defend. It is this type of outright theft, plagiarism, copying, call what you like, that I think we should call out
I don't want this to blow up into another kit piracy thread. I ONLY want to state that this particular kit, the Panart San Felipe, has by virtue of the model plans being EXACT COPIES (sans the title change, of course), been a proven case of one company copying the kit designed by another company. WE SHOULD LEAVE IT AT THAT. Lt.Strand is at liberty to decide for himself who to buy a kit from. Kit piracy is a reality, and it already has been exposed in this thread. Time to move on. I have to work on new ways to tease Paul ((DocKattner) now that he's down working on his Wasa, and he hasn't provided me with anything to work with yet.
The Panart kit is 1:75 scale. It's an old kit, going back at least 40 years, but very popular. The one I have is partially built, having taken over the project from another builder who has sadly passed away. As such, It was missing a piece or two. One of our members here actually provided me a missing part for the kit, for which I am very grateful, since parts are not obtainable otherwise. The kit would be a great basis for modifying into the Spanish ship Real Felipe, which actually did exist. The problem there is that there is maybe one or two unreliable painting the show images of the Real Felipe which I have been able to find on the web, but they have different features. As a result, no one really knows what the ship looked like, particularly the stern gallery structure, which is typically the most unique thing between ships of the similar size and country.Thank you for a very detailed answer
Quite understandable considering where its from. Which scale is the Panart?
Ok, well. This turned out interesting. Now with some of you very experiencd builders here Id like to ask one more question. Ive nerver build a wooden ship before, but im an experiecd plastic modeler. So I have looked on some diffrent kits, Occre Santisima Trinidad and of course San Felipe fron ZHL. I like big models and dont want something for beginners. But wich kit, maybe some other than these two do you guys recomend?
. Now with some of you very experiencd builders here Id like to ask one more question. Ive nerver build a wooden ship before, but im an experiecd plastic modeler. So I have looked on some diffrent kits, Occre Santisima Trinidad and of course San Felipe fron ZHL. I like big models and dont want something for beginners. But wich kit, maybe some other than these two do you guys recomend?
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Yep, I'm banned. MSW are not big on freedom of speech! Perhaps Elon Musk will buy them out!!
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Buenos días. Yo te recomendaría de Occre " Montañés". Es impresionante. Yo estoy con el muy ocupado.
Consider the kit HMS Victory by Corel 1:96 scale. I am currently building the model and find it challenging and fun. This is my second build after the Bluenose. A cautionary note, this kit is not for the beginner due to the skill set needed with modeling techniques...for example planking, and working with wood
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Ok, well. This turned out interesting
So many choices out there it’s hard to choose the “Right one”. One thing I will say for me that is, it has to be one that interests me whether it is the over all appearance of the ship, the style being warship or commercial vessel, historical significance or whatever, if it doesn’t interest me it’s hard to finish the build.
I have built several ZHL models (and the ZHL kit for the San Felipe on my shelf) and found them to be very competitive to the European companies in terms of quality. But different…seriously. What I would suggest is that the types of wood used are different between, say, ZHL and Panart. Also, the build techniques are different. For example, ZHL uses more thin plywood templates as the first planking layer than Panart. I will suggest, in my opinion, ZHL excels in creating first rate hull decorations. I can recommend any ZHL kit with confidence with the understanding that there is a difference in how kits are designed and built and the types of wood used are different.
San Philip is not a beginner or 2nd model attempt but there are definitely 1st time par excellent builders. ZH kits are good. But I advise caution - it’s not a 1st time kit. Experience + know what you want to achieve, your acknowledge & your skill level. Mine was a cross section + upgrades from scratch. I lost a few grey hairs. Inaccuracies updates, too. Up to you. Kit bashing exercise or semi scratch leading to exhibition class. Good luck. If you’re asking for a kit - go for simple - research and upgrade, or just build. You not want sharp curves or complex design or 1000 parts. Think of a jig saw - 10,000 pieces or ?
I just ordered a ZHL kit a month ago and awaiting it's arrival some time next year (slow boat from china) LOL. I came to this site to try and learn all I can prior to receiving it as this will be my 1st build.... ordered the 1:50 scale as my hands have been injured and I am hoping the larger size will help......I am retired and have wanted to build something like this ever since I was a kid....
tried planes but kept breaking the soft balsa wood (not good). I also found out that the plans for the ZHL Royal Caroline, which is the one that I bought, is in Chinese once again (not good) is there any way to get the instructions in English?? This site is overwhelming at times as I don't know a the nautical lingo and have to look most of it up to understand what people are talking about. But I have learned a great deal already from the articles on this site and the knowledgeable people here that are willing to share and teach. AWESOME group to learn from thanx and can't wait for my ship to arrive and begin my journey. Hopefully by the time that it gets here I will have learned enough to do a decent build.......LOL have a great day and happy building. Mike
tried planes but kept breaking the soft balsa wood (not good). I also found out that the plans for the ZHL Royal Caroline, which is the one that I bought, is in Chinese once again (not good) is there any way to get the instructions in English?? This site is overwhelming at times as I don't know a the nautical lingo and have to look most of it up to understand what people are talking about. But I have learned a great deal already from the articles on this site and the knowledgeable people here that are willing to share and teach. AWESOME group to learn from thanx and can't wait for my ship to arrive and begin my journey. Hopefully by the time that it gets here I will have learned enough to do a decent build.......LOL have a great day and happy building. Mike
There was a Covid lock down for a month in China ,so probably was not shipped at that time