Endeavour sails

[David H]

Hi
I have recently completed Endeavour by Occre. In the kit there are 17 sails
Was it usual to raise all sails at the same time or were the square sails only raised with a following wind and the fire to aft sails for tacking?
The boat is very crowded with all sails and it would have required a large crew to manage all at the same time
Thanks

 

[pugwash]

Very intelligent question.
I'm no expert, but there would be no point setting sails where others took the wind?

 

[David H]

Thanks. That makes sense to me. I have searched the web for any information about which sails are used and when but haven’t found anything

 

[Gebirgsmarine]

I am not an expert, I only had a short training on the former Ukraine school ship Tovarish (now a museumship at Stralsund, Germany). As you mentioned, it takes a large crew to manage all the sails on a square rigger, that is a disadvantage of square riggers. But they are sturdy and that is a big advantage for sailing in rough waters. So square riggers conquered the oceans. Latin sailed ships require a smaller crew, are faster and can sail higher on the wind. But the sails are large in comparison and the gaffs are sleek. It is not easy to reduce sail area in strong winds. (If I remember right, Chinese junks had a genius way to reduce sail area direct on the sail, but they also were square rigged)
We sailed always with all squaresails set as winds were not so strong. ( But enough to get me seasick ). Also with foremast staysail, jib, jager and of course spanker (for turning). When the wind is coming straight from behind, the efficiency of the "shaded" sails is minimal, but normally the wind comes not straight from behind. Maybe the minimal efficiency and the drag is neglectable in comparison to the amount of work to reduce the sails and setting them again.
As winds change, yards are turned accordingly, so all sails are filled. The more the wind comes from the side, the more the yards are turned away from the right angle to the ship's centerline.
Turning the big and heavy yards to get them in a proper position when cruising is hard work and has to be executed in an exact procedure.
If winds became stronger, sail area is reduced from top down, royals and topgallants first. Also a very exhausting job, especially if it is cold and wet, hanging on the foot ropes, with your belly on the yard and pulling up the heavy sails. We had safety belts, the ancient sailors didn´t and for compensation always had a good quantum of alcohol in their blood.
Maybe a more sailing experienced member has deeper information.
Christian

 

[El Capi]

I am not an expert, I only had a short training on the former Ukraine school ship Tovarish (now a museumship at Stralsund, Germany). As you mentioned, it takes a large crew to manage all the sails on a square rigger, that is a disadvantage of square riggers. But they are sturdy and that is a big advantage for sailing in rough waters. So square riggers conquered the oceans. Latin sailed ships require a smaller crew, are faster and can sail higher on the wind. But the sails are large in comparison and the gaffs are sleek. It is not easy to reduce sail area in strong winds. (If I remember right, Chinese junks had a genius way to reduce sail area direct on the sail, but they also were square rigged)
We sailed always with all squaresails set as winds were not so strong. ( But enough to get me seasick ). Also with foremast staysail, jib, jager and of course spanker (for turning). When the wind is coming straight from behind, the efficiency of the "shaded" sails is minimal, but normally the wind comes not straight from behind. Maybe the minimal efficiency and the drag is neglectable in comparison to the amount of work to reduce the sails and setting them again.
As winds change, yards are turned accordingly, so all sails are filled. The more the wind comes from the side, the more the yards are turned away from the right angle to the ship's centerline.
Turning the big and heavy yards to get them in a proper position when cruising is hard work and has to be executed in an exact procedure.
If winds became stronger, sail area is reduced from top down, royals and topgallants first. Also a very exhausting job, especially if it is cold and wet, hanging on the foot ropes, with your belly on the yard and pulling up the heavy sails. We had safety belts, the ancient sailors didn´t and for compensation always had a good quantum of alcohol in their blood.
Maybe a more sailing experienced member has deeper information.
Christian

I can ONLY fully agree with the former. he must have been a sailer too. well done

I am not an expert, I only had a short training on the former Ukraine school ship Tovarish (now a museumship at Stralsund, Germany). As you mentioned, it takes a large crew to manage all the sails on a square rigger, that is a disadvantage of square riggers. But they are sturdy and that is a big advantage for sailing in rough waters. So square riggers conquered the oceans. Latin sailed ships require a smaller crew, are faster and can sail higher on the wind. But the sails are large in comparison and the gaffs are sleek. It is not easy to reduce sail area in strong winds. (If I remember right, Chinese junks had a genius way to reduce sail area direct on the sail, but they also were square rigged)
We sailed always with all squaresails set as winds were not so strong. ( But enough to get me seasick ). Also with foremast staysail, jib, jager and of course spanker (for turning). When the wind is coming straight from behind, the efficiency of the "shaded" sails is minimal, but normally the wind comes not straight from behind. Maybe the minimal efficiency and the drag is neglectable in comparison to the amount of work to reduce the sails and setting them again.
As winds change, yards are turned accordingly, so all sails are filled. The more the wind comes from the side, the more the yards are turned away from the right angle to the ship's centerline.
Turning the big and heavy yards to get them in a proper position when cruising is hard work and has to be executed in an exact procedure.
If winds became stronger, sail area is reduced from top down, royals and topgallants first. Also a very exhausting job, especially if it is cold and wet, hanging on the foot ropes, with your belly on the yard and pulling up the heavy sails. We had safety belts, the ancient sailors didn´t and for compensation always had a good quantum of alcohol in their blood.
Maybe a more sailing experienced member has deeper information.
Christian

Although from Austria it looks like you have been at sea and tried the salted waters too. Well written and I can only fully agree

 

[Gebirgsmarine]

El Capi,
I tried it 3 times, sailing on tall ships. But I always got seasick .
So I gave up for more than 30 years.
Now retired I try it again. This saturday I start a training for coastal sailing and motor ships up to 20m.
In Febrary just theory, in autumn in Croatia. Lets see!
Keep you fingers crossed!
Christian

 

[David H]

Christian
Thanks for your great reply and tales of exciting times. Good luck with your sailing

 

[KeithLyall]

Hi David, I am currently working on the Occre Endeavour and have decided to attached sails in the furled state. Following many views and comments from a question I asked (Sails or No Sails) I have just taken delivery of silkspan which many experienced modellers seem to prefer as it is more to scale than the Occre provided sails.

 

[El Capi]

Hi David, I am currently working on the Occre Endeavour and have decided to attached sails in the furled state. Following many views and comments from a question I asked (Sails or No Sails) I have just taken delivery of silks-an which many experienced modellers seem to prefer as it is more to scale than the Occre provided sails.

OcCre sail-the so-called ready-to-use sails are no good.. midding a lot. In the time I was building, I generally used old shirts treated with a potato starch solution and heat from an iron.
below a few examples- boltrope-the blaack onr -

 

[El Capi]

a few important tools, which can help a lot- they are from leather manufacturers, but for sails too
excellent

 

[Stuart Little]

Hi David, I am currently working on the Occre Endeavour and have decided to attached sails in the furled state. Following many views and comments from a question I asked (Sails or No Sails) I have just taken delivery of silkspan which many experienced modellers seem to prefer as it is more to scale than the Occre provided sails.

Hi Keith, where did you get silkspan from?

 

[KeithLyall]

Hi Keith, where did you get silkspan from?

Hi Stuart, got it from a website called Hobbies (hobbies.co.uk). The link is https://www.hobbies.co.uk/deluxe-materials-eze-tissue-natural-5-sheets. Seems to be different named materials i.e. silkspan, modelspan and this eze tissue appear to be the same material.

 

[Stuart Little]

Hi Stuart, got it from a website called Hobbies (hobbies.co.uk). The link is https://www.hobbies.co.uk/deluxe-materials-eze-tissue-natural-5-sheets. Seems to be different named materials i.e. silkspan, modelspan and this eze tissue appear to be the same material.

Thanks Keith, I already have 'tissue', sourced some time back, but not used yet (lost it somewhere - senior moment - but found now). I thought you may have found the original silkspan.

Stuart
























0

 

[KeithLyall]

Afraid not Stuart but other folk seem to use this material from looking at previous posts. Know what you mean about senior moments. Once I complete the Endeavour but before I start Endurance I am going to have a bit of a tidy and reorganisation as bits and pieces seem to get scattered and disorganised.

 

[El Capi]

Hi Stuart, got it from a website called Hobbies (hobbies.co.uk). The link is https://www.hobbies.co.uk/deluxe-materials-eze-tissue-natural-5-sheets. Seems to be different named materials i.e. silkspan, modelspan and this eze tissue appear to be the same material.

As far as I remember. silk span was used quite a lot about 40-50 years back. it was used mainly for model flying aircraft, but here better materials have been shoved up. I personally would not use it. As mentioned here or somewhere else, I used some old white shirts-the time with a shirt and tie. If too weak, add it to cold water mixed with a spoonful or two of a Patato Starh. after some time take it out and now use an Iron or another hot method like a hairdryer. GRAND MOTHERS OLD TRICHWHEN HUSBAND had to go to his Club with a perfect neck and tie.

 

[Luiz B. F. Grassi]

Hi
I have recently completed Endeavour by Occre. In the kit there are 17 sails
Was it usual to raise all sails at the same time or were the square sails only raised with a following wind and the fire to aft sails for tacking?
The boat is very crowded with all sails and it would have required a large crew to manage all at the same time
Thanks

Hi David, I have some experience aboard sailboats, they really didn't raise all the sails at the same time, this would decrease the efficiency of the set.
The adjustments for a good sailing are quite complex and required a large crew members. Nowadays we have electric windless with big power reducers which makes everything easier.
For your model , I suggest do not exactly consider the sets of sails used for each different wind situation, but rather the one that looks the most aesthetically , even if it is not totally correct in reality. You can set, for exemple, the "triangular"sails in the bowsprit, between the masts , and in the mizzen boom. In the upper yard set "squares" sails raised and in the lower yards partially furled. So the view of the deck will be more clear and the look of the model more bulky.
Hope this help, good luck .

 

[David H]

Many thanks for your advice

 

[El Capi]

Hi David, I have some experience aboard sailboats, they really didn't raise all the sails at the same time, this would decrease the efficiency of the set.
The adjustments for a good sailing are quite complex and required a large crew members. Nowadays we have electric windless with big power reducers which makes everything easier.
For your model , I suggest do not exactly consider the sets of sails used for each different wind situation, but rather the one that looks the most aesthetically , even if it is not totally correct in reality. You can set, for exemple, the "triangular"sails in the bowsprit, between the masts , and in the mizzen boom. In the upper yard set "squares" sails raised and in the lower yards partially furled. So the view of the deck will be more clear and the look of the model more bulky.
Hope this help, good luck .

In old sailship, both gunships, merchant ships and clippers had normally all sail set even in som hard wether. manny had as well the extra sail set

 

[David H]

thanks. Great pictures. I see all the square sails up plus the forestry and the rear mast spanker all up all at the same time My main question is about the triangular stay sails that are between the masts and I understand are really needed when sailing as close as possible into the wind
I understand that square riggers were fairly inefficient when tacking into the wing compared with sloop riggged boats (by this I mean triangular sails running along the line of the boat and not square to it)
Apologies for the poor knowledge as to the correct sails names

 

[El Capi]

thanks. Great pictures. I see all the square sails up plus the forestry and the rear mast spanker all up all at the same time My main question is about the triangular stay sails that are between the masts and I understand are really needed when sailing as close as possible into the wind
I understand that square riggers were fairly inefficient when tacking into the wing compared with sloop riggged boats (by this I mean triangular sails running along the line of the boat and not square to it)
Apologies for the poor knowledge as to the correct sails names

GENERALLY, YJERE WERE 3 sTAYSAIL BETWEEN THE MAST, OF WHICH THE TWO UPPER ONES GAD A SQUARE DORM, ONLY RHE LOVER ONE TRIANGULAR.
if you like I can add some images in a dictionary form. We ball had to begin and make mistakes- of which you learn more than from a book. so don't apologise. we cannot all have been building many years in time with no computer etc. it was making a mistake, go back again until you were satisfied. i have about 10 gb info,. which will slowly be deleted