Tees or Knees or both

Don Case

Don Case

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I'm attaching the channels to the Discovery1789. Steel says that there are iron tees under the channels to reinforce them. Ships Repository says wooden knees on the top. When I look at the drawings in Mondfeld he shows both tees and knees. The drawings I have don't show either. I'm thinking that Mondfeld showed both just as a convenience for the book but I'm not sure. I've already installed the tees but I'm unsure of whether to install the knees also. I'm assuming that the iron tees superseded the wooden knees. Any help would be appreciated :)

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John McKay's drawing of HMS Discovery do not show knee supports for the channels either above or below. That doesn't mean conclusively that neither were there, but it does mean that we should dig for more sources until we find one that does show them, and then study carefully where they are, how big they are, what their shape is, and what they are made of before deciding what put on or leave off of the model.

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Another drawing I found. . .
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Yet another drawing... still don't see any knees for the channels. . .Did Steel say that knee were present specifically on the Discovery?
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DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
John McKay's drawing of HMS Discovery do not show knee supports for the channels either above or below. That doesn't mean conclusively that neither were there, but it does mean that we should dig for more sources until we find one that does show them, and then study carefully where they are, how big they are, what their shape is, and what they are made of before deciding what put on or leave off of the model.

View attachment 344748


Another drawing I found. . .
View attachment 344749


Yet another drawing... still don't see any knees for the channels. . .Did Steel say that knee were present specifically on the Discovery?
View attachment 344750
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No Steel didn't say specifically, I refer to him, well actually Alan Yedlinsky's book is where I was looking. I have all those drawings and all that the RMG has and I can't see any sign of braces or knees. So I'm stuck trying to second guess even more things on this ship. I was warned when I started that this was not a good choice because there wasn't enough info available. I've looked everywhere I can think of and there is nothing about the Discovery1789. I've read George Vancouver's log of the trip a half dozen times (not an easy task) and there is little or nothing about the ship Anyway, all I can do in a lot of things is to look at what other ships of the period were doing. This is where I have to fall back on you guys that have seen lots of ships. I'm hoping for someone to say, "Oh, I"m working on the such and such built in 1790 and it had both tees and knees." Things like that. Anyway, enough whining :) Have you ever seen a ship with both tees and knees?
 
Jwallkc said:
I am thinking I wouldn't treat Mondfeld as authoritarian on much
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Yes I'd heard that. That's one of the reasons I questioned the drawing. But actually I've found Monfeld to be right way more than he's wrong. I spent days reading old books on mast and yards, doing all the arithmetic, trying to determine the measurements of the Discovery's masting. I think I found 3 or 4 different methods of figuring them. After all the work the dimensions were within a few inches of each other and Mondfelds dimensions were right in the middle. The man obviously did a lot of research. I consider him a good source but like any source it's nice to have a backup.
 
Jwallkc said:
I am thinking I wouldn't treat Mondfeld as authoritarian on much
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Mondfeld is great as a reference. All the features he illustrates provide details on how those features are made. The features are best as references when they are provided with a date and nationality, but they serve as examples only. For features found on specific, individual ships, you have to look to other sources.
 
Don Case said:
No Steel didn't say specifically, I refer to him, well actually Alan Yedlinsky's book is where I was looking. I have all those drawings and all that the RMG has and I can't see any sign of braces or knees. So I'm stuck trying to second guess even more things on this ship. I was warned when I started that this was not a good choice because there wasn't enough info available. I've looked everywhere I can think of and there is nothing about the Discovery1789. I've read George Vancouver's log of the trip a half dozen times (not an easy task) and there is little or nothing about the ship Anyway, all I can do in a lot of things is to look at what other ships of the period were doing. This is where I have to fall back on you guys that have seen lots of ships. I'm hoping for someone to say, "Oh, I"m working on the such and such built in 1790 and it had both tees and knees." Things like that. Anyway, enough whining :) Have you ever seen a ship with both tees and knees?
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It is very possible that knees of any kind were not fitted to Discovery, based on what the direct sources specific to the Discovery are showing. Faced with the few sources we do have, I would not use knees on your model. Like I said in my other post, if one of the blueprints of Discovery did show the presence of knees, Mondfeld would be a great source to see up close how those knees would have been shaped. One o the things you have realize in ship modeling is that there are always areas were evidence is scant or missing, and you are left trusting artists renditions, which are dubious, or make an educated guess on your own. There are more maybe's out there than right or wrong.

As for having upper and lower knees on the channel, I have not seen an example of such, but then again my focus on ships is limited to the early 17th century, so I don't have specific knowledge of many ships from later centuries. All you can do when faced with a complete blackout on information is try looking to other, similar ships and see what they have for features. As modelers, we WANT 100% complete information as to how to build out model. Reality is quite the opposite. You need to research trends, measure likelihoods, and make guesses. No, it is not comfortable.
 
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I never considered that there might not be any. Nothing I have seen said that they were optional. Hmmmmm
Thanks for the help.
 
Don Case said:
I never considered that there might not be any. Nothing I have seen said that they were optional. Hmmmmm
Thanks for the help.
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These sort of questions come up all the time, even when building a kit, where most builders expect to just follow the directions and that's it. Working through these research problems is a large part of building these model ships. In my experience in kit bashing research is actually about 70% of the time and work. the rest is actually building the model.
 
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
These sort of questions come up all the time, even when building a kit, where most builders expect to just follow the directions and that's it. Working through these research problems is a large part of building these model ships. In my experience in kit bashing research is actually about 70% of the time and work. the rest is actually building the model.
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Good morning, sorry, what do you mean by knees and ten, I have some translation problems, can you post the details? Thanks
 
Frank, if you look at the picture I posted the tees are the little black things under the channels. The knees are not shown but they would be kind of the wooden equivalent on top of the channels.
 
My suggestion is to leave as you have currently modeled…just the tees under the channels. I have seen both but not together and the knees above the channels on very early ships of the late 1500s and 1600s.
 
danielsje said:
My suggestion is to leave as you have currently modeled…just the tees under the channels. I have seen both but not together and the knees above the channels on very early ships of the late 1500s and 1600s.
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That was my plan and then I saw the picture in Mondfeld's book and it made me wonder. It's also a lot easier, those tiny little knees were looking rather daunting. :)
 
Yup that's what I'm looking for Frank. Have you ever seen a ship with both wooden knees and iron tees? It's also looking like I should have used the same brace as the Bounty. It was built 3 years before the Discovery. Mine are like the Victory which was 13 years after. The Bounty braces would have been a lot easier to make too. The picture of the channel with no braces was Dutch 17th century so I can put that on a back burner for now

Sì, è quello che sto cercando Frank. Hai mai visto una nave con ginocchia in legno e magliette di ferro? Sembra anche che avrei dovuto usare lo stesso tutore del Bounty. Fu costruito 3 anni prima della scoperta. I miei sono come la Vittoria che è stata 13 anni dopo. Anche le parentesi graffe Bounty sarebbero state molto più facili da realizzare. L'immagine del canale senza parentesi graffe era olandese del 17 ° secolo, quindi posso metterlo in secondo piano per ora
 
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