HMS Fly sail rigging question

[STGCS]

I didn’t do a complete build log for H.M.S. Fly because I posted a build log for H.M.S. Pegasus and they are 95% identical. I also added the upgrade kit for Fly. I replaced the deadeyes, ropes, blocks, and the longboat with third party parts. The upgrade supplied a much better deadeye strop as well as gun locks and barrel monograms.

My wife wanted a ship with sails and as the Swan Class are my favorite ships, I went with the Fly. Also changed the color scheme as directed.

I’m at the point where it’s time to start working on masts and rigging. Having never done sails on a square rigger, my question is: Should I attach the sails to the spars before I mount them to the masts? I‘m guessing yes but want some expert advice that points me in the right direction. I want them to hang straight down, not billowed out and buntlines holding a few sails about halfway up. Hope this makes sense.

Current progress:



Thanks for your help
Charlie

 

[dockattner]

Hi Charlie,

I'm reluctant to post anything here because I have rigged a grand total of ONE square sailed ship. But I'll share my limited experience. I would ABSOLUTELY bend all sails to their yards before adding them to the mast. In fact, I would add as much rigging as I possibly could to the sails and yards ahead of time (including any furling you want to do).

I tried working from the bottom up, and from the top down, and didn't find one way greatly superior to the other - you just need to pay attention to which lines might be in your way and hold off belaying them until the end.

I look forward to seeing what others might post - we are all in learning mode all the time...

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I also haven't made but one model, but it was fully rigged with all sails deployed. In my experience, the rigging of parrels was made much easier by bending the sails to the yards after the yardarms were rigged to the mast using ties, halyards and parrels. Note that the parrel rigging was not simplified, but run exactly as on a real ship, making it more complex, including the use of three rows of trucks on the course yardarms.

There are advantages and disadvantages for attaching sails to yardarms prior to yard installation. The type of ship, scale, and complexity of the riggings affect this decision. A smaller scale model like the one I built increased the difficulty of reaching belaying points easily as rigging progress since access was more limited. A 17th century man of war has many more lines crowding the space between masts that a 19th century frigate will.

As @dockattner said, attach all blocks to the yards before installing them to make installation of running rigging easier later. Work from top down when installing sail, because installing the courses first will reduce access to deck belaying points.

 

[STGCS]

Hi Charlie,

I'm reluctant to post anything here because I have rigged a grand total of ONE square sailed ship. But I'll share my limited experience. I would ABSOLUTELY bend all sails to their yards before adding them to the mast. In fact, I would add as much rigging as I possibly could to the sails and yards ahead of time (including any furling you want to do).

I tried working from the bottom up, and from the top down, and didn't find one way greatly superior to the other - you just need to pay attention to which lines might be in your way and hold off belaying them until the end.

I look forward to seeing what others might post - we are all in learning mode all the time...

Thanks Paul;
Kind of figured that. Guess I need to post the mast/rigging phase on the build logs of wood even though I'm a little late. Should get some in-site there.

 

[danielsje]

The core of the question is how well can one reach into the complexity of the masting and rigging of the ship model to add the sails and rigging. Many rigging points can be added to a spar, and should be added, prior to mounting the spar to the mast. Other parts need to be added later. What I am suggesting is that technically you can mount a bare spar to a mast and go from there…but you get to learn how to rig using two sets of tweezers! One in each hand! And that usually leads to hard drink and many nasty words. Bottom line is there is no real hard and fast rule here…just the preferences of the modeler…add as much as you can when it is easier to hold the spar…mount it…then sort out the rigging from there. I have worked rigging different ways and always end up with something I need to belay by reaching into the middle of things with tweezers! One in each hand! Never fails!

 

[STGCS]

The core of the question is how well can one reach into the complexity of the masting and rigging of the ship model to add the sails and rigging. Many rigging points can be added to a spar, and should be added, prior to mounting the spar to the mast. Other parts need to be added later. What I am suggesting is that technically you can mount a bare spar to a mast and go from there…but you get to learn how to rig using two sets of tweezers! One in each hand! And that usually leads to hard drink and many nasty words. Bottom line is there is no real hard and fast rule here…just the preferences of the modeler…add as much as you can when it is easier to hold the spar…mount it…then sort out the rigging from there. I have worked rigging different ways and always end up with something I need to belay by reaching into the middle of things with tweezers! One in each hand! Never fails!

Hi Jim; That's pretty much how I did previous ships. Just never did sails on a square rigger before. I like to work top down on my masts because when I started my first model I did the bottom spars and worked up. I often broke stuff on the lower gear reaching up to the top of a mast. I'll start with the bowsprit and probably post on a build log. That should get me some comments as to how I'm doing, Thanks for the comment.

 

[danielsje]

I built the Billings kit HMS Bounty in the mid 80s with full sails. If memory serves I bent the sails on the spars before I mounted the spars. In this case it was easier to thread the sail rigging to the spars but added to the complexity of the follow on rigging because now you are working around the mounted sails. I think I would recommend bending on the sails to the spars before mounting to the masts. Try one and see how it goes…

 

[STGCS]

I also haven't made but one model, but it was fully rigged with all sails deployed. In my experience, the rigging of parrels was made much easier by bending the sails to the yards after the yardarms were rigged to the mast using ties, halyards and parrels. Note that the parrel rigging was not simplified, but run exactly as on a real ship, making it more complex, including the use of three rows of trucks on the course yardarms.

There are advantages and disadvantages for attaching sails to yardarms prior to yard installation. The type of ship, scale, and complexity of the riggings affect this decision. A smaller scale model like the one I built increased the difficulty of reaching belaying points easily as rigging progress since access was more limited. A 17th century man of war has many more lines crowding the space between masts that a 19th century frigate will.

As @dockattner said, attach all blocks to the yards before installing them to make installation of running rigging easier later. Work from top down when installing sail, because installing the courses first will reduce access to deck belaying points.

Great info. Thanks for the input. I will follow your suggestions for sure. Do you know of a diagram that shows the belaying points for sails? Just happen to think I need to find out where to attach the lines as the plans don't have sails. I have several books on rigging and will do some serious reading.

 

[STGCS]

I built the Billings kit HMS Bounty in the mid 80s With full sails. If memory serves I bent the sails on before I mounted the spars. In this case it was easier to thread the sail rigging to the spars but added to the complexity of the follow on rigging because now you are working around the mounted sails. I think I would recommend bending on the sails to the spars before mounting to the masts. Try one and see how it goes…

Will do. Starting with the bowsprit with the sails furled. Taking baby steps.

 

[Daniel20]

Hello Charlie, congratulations on building the HMS Fly, that was my first ship (no sails). I agree with Paul @dockattner, place everything you can sails, blocking, pendants on the yards you can before hoisting it onto the mast. I even placed the parrels onto the yard as you can see in the picture. They are hanging in the background. You have a beautiful hull going there by the way.

 

[STGCS]

Hello Charlie, congratulations on building the HMS Fly, that was my first ship (no sails). I agree with Paul @dockattner, place everything you can sails, blocking, pendants on the yards you can before hoisting it onto the mast. I even placed the parrels onto the yard as you can see in the picture. They are hanging in the background. You have a beautiful hull going there by the way.

View attachment 335934

Hi Daniel; Thanks for the picture (a thousand words etc.) The parrel shot really helps. Have to go back check out your Fly build for reference's. Forgot all about that one.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Great info. Thanks for the input. I will follow your suggestions for sure. Do you know of a diagram that shows the belaying points for sails? Just happen to think I need to find out where to attach the lines as the plans don't have sails. I have several books on rigging and will do some serious reading.

Finding a belaying plan is like finding a winning lottery ticket. Belaying plans are not often documented in history, but a frigate from the 19th century has a great chance of having plan existing. I personally don't know where to look for one for your frigate, but I do know that there are several generic conventions that exist for such ships. Ships from my period of interest have zero chance of finding a belaying plan. I would ask others who build frigates what plan they used, and model kits usually have a decent one. Get this book:



It has complete rigging plans for HMS Melampus, a 36 gun English frigate, launched 1785. This would serve as a good basis. The book is all pictures, the perfect guide for rigging a ship of this type. The frigates you build should have ship-specific info that would be more useful.





Ages of Sail (www.agesofsail.com) has Amati plans of HMS Fly which include a belaying plan, but I don't know if that includes running rigging lines for sheets, clews, tack, and so on. Being a model kit manufacturer, it's best to check these against any historical information you research. At least these plans are ship-specific.


When it comes down to it, you have to scour the bowels of the internet to find information on books that may help you build, and cruise the ship forums like this one, using the search engine locate build logs to reference. Best of luck in your research!

Kurt

 

[STGCS]

Finding a belaying plan is like finding a winning lottery ticket. Belaying plans are not often documented in history, but a frigate from the 19th century has a great chance of having plan existing. I personally don't know where to look for one for your frigate, but I do know that there are several generic conventions that exist for such ships. Ships from my period of interest have zero chance of finding a belaying plan. I would ask others who build frigates what plan they used, and model kits usually have a decent one. Get this book:

View attachment 335962

It has complete rigging plans for HMS Melampus, a 36 gun English frigate, launched 1785. This would serve as a good basis. The book is all pictures, the perfect guide for rigging a ship of this type. The frigates you build should have ship-specific info that would be more useful.

View attachment 335963 View attachment 335964

View attachment 335965

Ages of Sail (www.agesofsail.com) has Amati plans of HMS Fly which include a belaying plan, but I don't know if that includes running rigging lines for sheets, clews, tack, and so on. Being a model kit manufacturer, it's best to check these against any historical information you research. At least these plans are ship-specific.
View attachment 335974

When it comes down to it, you have to scour the bowels of the internet to find information on books that may help you build, and cruise the ship forums like this one, using the search engine locate build logs to reference. Best of luck in your research!

Kurt

Hey Kurt; Your info greatly appreciated. I have ordered the "Rigging of period ship models" from Amazon as you suggested. Should be here on Monday. Also in my library is "The Rigging of ships" by R.C. Anderson. I have the Amati Fly and Pegasus kit with the plans and of course no belaying points for sail installation. The Swan Class is my favorite ship of all time and will try another from scratch using Pegasus kit plans. Hopefully I will have the expertise by the time I finish Fly to get it completed. My research continues.....

 

[dockattner]

Hey Kurt; Your info greatly appreciated. I have ordered the "Rigging of period ship models" from Amazon as you suggested. Should be here on Monday. Also in my library is "The Rigging of ships" by R.C. Anderson. I have the Amati Fly and Pegasus kit with the plans and of course no belaying points for sail installation. The Swan Class is my favorite ship of all time and will try another from scratch using Pegasus kit plans. Hopefully I will have the expertise by the time I finish Fly to get it completed. My research continues.....

Hi Charlie,

Now that you mention a scratch build, I'll direct you to the book series: The Fully Framed Model. I believe this series is the definitive work on swan class ships if one is going to be building a model. Volume IV is dedicated to rigging though it does not have a belay plan per se. But there is a 'paragraph' on every single line and that should get you close.

In addition to other sources (new and used) you can purchase this series from SeaWatch:

https://seawatchbooks.com/collections/swan-class-sloops-series

 

[Robertd]

Hey Kurt; Your info greatly appreciated. I have ordered the "Rigging of period ship models" from Amazon as you suggested. Should be here on Monday. Also in my library is "The Rigging of ships" by R.C. Anderson. I have the Amati Fly and Pegasus kit with the plans and of course no belaying points for sail installation. The Swan Class is my favorite ship of all time and will try another from scratch using Pegasus kit plans. Hopefully I will have the expertise by the time I finish Fly to get it completed. My research continues.....

Following your ‘Fly’ Charlie, yes I have ordered the ‘Riggingof period ship models ‘too , I just do the rigging on my build

 

[STGCS]

Hi Charlie,

Now that you mention a scratch build, I'll direct you to the book series: The Fully Framed Model. I believe this series is the definitive work on swan class ships if one is going to be building a model. Volume IV is dedicated to rigging though it does not have a belay plan per se. But there is a 'paragraph' on every single line and that should get you close.

In addition to other sources (new and used) you can purchase this series from SeaWatch:

https://seawatchbooks.com/collections/swan-class-sloops-series

I ordered Vol. 1. will get the rest as I can afford them. Thanks again

 

[STGCS]

Following your ‘Fly’ Charlie, yes I have ordered the ‘Riggingof period ship models ‘too , I just do the rigging on my build

thanks. hope you find it interesting and informative

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Hey Kurt; Your info greatly appreciated. I have ordered the "Rigging of period ship models" from Amazon as you suggested. Should be here on Monday. Also in my library is "The Rigging of ships" by R.C. Anderson. I have the Amati Fly and Pegasus kit with the plans and of course no belaying points for sail installation. The Swan Class is my favorite ship of all time and will try another from scratch using Pegasus kit plans. Hopefully I will have the expertise by the time I finish Fly to get it completed. My research continues.....

RC Anderson is a great book for the 17th century, but the rigging arrangement changed in the 18th and 19th centuries, generally becoming simpler and more efficient in belaying. For me, it's the rigging Bible. You will get far more out of Lennarth Petersson's book than I will for the same reason, different time period styles. The Swan class frigates are elegant, and I can see why they appeal to you. The color on your model is bright and attractive. After you finish HMS Fly, your next ship, even if the same class, will be 100% better in detail and neatness, so look forward to that! And, please post you building adventures on the forum here so we can also enjoy the journey and also learn and be inspired. Love your work!

Kurt