Brigs and cross jack yards.

[Jack Jäger]

Currently I am building Vanguard Models of the 18th century Royal Navy Brig Speedy and so far the research I have undertaken with regards to the rigging of the main mast, main yard has proved inconclusive. In particular I would like to find out if the said yard should be considered as the sail carrying main yard or merely as a cross jack yard used to spread the top sail has proved inconclusive. Many paintings of the time show this yard carrying a sail, mostly furled, sometimes full and on, yet most modern replicas of boats of this era show the yard bare, (as it would be on a three mast ship). I would love it if anyone could throw some light on the matter. Thank you all in anticipation.

 

[Don Case]

About 30 years ago I bought a Shop Task metal lathe/milling machine. It's a full sized machine. Paid about $2000 for it. After those 30 years I've only done a few jobs that really needed a lathe or a mill so I don't know that I've gotten my money out that way BUT I've done thousands of little things way better than I could have done them using alternate methods. You can turn a part in a drill press or a drill in a vice but you get a way better part in a lathe. You can cut a groove with a saw and a chisel but it's way more accurate with a milling machine.
Not always necessary but I wouldn't be without it.

 

[jimmystratos]

About 30 years ago I bought a Shop Task metal lathe/milling machine. It's a full sized machine. Paid about $2000 for it. After those 30 years I've only done a few jobs that really needed a lathe or a mill so I don't know that I've gotten my money out that way BUT I've done thousands of little things way better than I could have done them using alternate methods. You can turn a part in a drill press or a drill in a vice but you get a way better part in a lathe. You can cut a groove with a saw and a chisel but it's way more accurate with a milling machine.
Not always necessary but I wouldn't be without it.

Something tells me this was intended for the Proxxon mini mill thread!

 

[Bob Ellis]

Currently I am building Vanguard Models of the 18th century Royal Navy Brig Speedy and so far the research I have undertaken with regards to the rigging of the main mast, main yard has proved inconclusive. In particular I would like to find out if the said yard should be considered as the sail carrying main yard or merely as a cross jack yard used to spread the top sail has proved inconclusive. Many paintings of the time show this yard carrying a sail, mostly furled, sometimes full and on, yet most modern replicas of boats of this era show the yard bare, (as it would be on a three mast ship). I would love it if anyone could throw some light on the matter. Thank you all in anticipation.

The National Maritime museum collections has models and paintings showing both bare yards and sail carrying yards. It would be logical to assume All main yards would be capable of bearing a sail, the sea conditions would dictate whether or not a sail was set.

 

[Jack Jäger]

The National Maritime museum collections has models and paintings showing both bare yards and sail carrying yards. It would be logical to assume All main yards would be capable of bearing a sail, the sea conditions would dictate whether or not a sail was set.

Thanks Bob, I agree it would certainly be logical to assume that all brig main yards should carry a sail, and indeed RN brigs of the nineteenth century mostly did, but I can find little proof that the same can be said for brigs of the late 18th century. There is a snippet in Dr F Howard's Sailing Ships of War 1400-1860. (quote p.251) The rig of nineteenth century brigs differed slightly from that of the previous century. The mainmast had a square mainsail (which the earlier brigs lacked)... It was possible to set a square mainsail because the main yard was kept permanently aloft. Also on p.216 'The eighteenth century' he writes, By the1770s snow-rigged sloops were being replaced by brigs. The difference between a brig and a snow was that a brig had no main course. Other than that book I cannot find any real evidence. Also as Speedy's career spanned the turn of the century it is possible that her rigging changed with the times.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Thanks Bob, I agree it would certainly be logical to assume that all brig main yards should carry a sail, and indeed RN brigs of the nineteenth century mostly did, but I can find little proof that the same can be said for brigs of the late 18th century. There is a snippet in Dr F Howard's Sailing Ships of War 1400-1860. (quote p.251) The rig of nineteenth century brigs differed slightly from that of the previous century. The mainmast had a square mainsail (which the earlier brigs lacked)... It was possible to set a square mainsail because the main yard was kept permanently aloft. Also on p.216 'The eighteenth century' he writes, By the1770s snow-rigged sloops were being replaced by brigs. The difference between a brig and a snow was that a brig had no main course. Other than that book I cannot find any real evidence. Also as Speedy's career spanned the turn of the century it is possible that her rigging changed with the times.

I think the (more or less) contemporary images of Speedy are hopelessly inaccurate. I'll have to re-read Master and Commander!! Personally I would rig with a furled main course.

 

[Don Case]

Something tells me this was intended for the Proxxon mini mill thread!

Yes it was. I didn't notice because I got Covid and didn't come back here for a week. You can't delete stuff here so I'll just leave it. Sorry

 

[Uwek]

They removed the sails from the yards only when it was clear and definitiv, that the ship would be over a longer time in an harbour or placed in ordinary.
But than the would also remove the yards.
I guess, that they would have all the sail material installed at the yards, when the ship is in active service.

To compare with replicas is often misleading, because their rig is often a historical not correct.
They are motorboats and they put some sails on only to show somehow some sails

The Hermione is an exemption, because she is one replica which has a motoer only for manouvers in the harbour and for safety - she is 99,9% of the time sailing by the wind



and you can see, that they are not removing the sails even the ship is for several days in an harbour

 

[Jack Jäger]

They removed the sails from the yards only when it was clear and definitiv, that the ship would be over a longer time in an harbour or placed in ordinary.
But than the would also remove the yards.
I guess, that they would have all the sail material installed at the yards, when the ship is in active service.

To compare with replicas is often misleading, because their rig is often a historical not correct.
They are motorboats and they put some sails on only to show somehow some sails

The Hermione is an exemption, because she is one replica which has a motoer only for manouvers in the harbour and for safety - she is 99,9% of the time sailing by the wind

View attachment 306636

and you can see, that they are not removing the sails even the ship is for several days in an harbour

View attachment 306637



View attachment 306638

Thanks Uwe, I get the point about replica ships and even having walked the deck of HMS Trincomalee, (not a replica, but a rebuild), in Hartlepool I was taken aback by how much the rigging was 'dumbed down' never mind left out altogether. Yet I am sure she is the best example of a RN wooden frigate in existence. But with regard to HMS Speedy I am now almost certain that between the 1760's and the end of the century that english naval brigs carried no main sail and that the main yard was regarded as a crossjack yard. I am attempting to display Speedy as she may have looked in the 1790's so will probably leave the main yard undressed.
Interestingly Cochrane in his 'Autobiography of a Seaman' claims that he acquired a larger main spar "and thus a greater spread of canvas was secured". This was around April 1800. Could this act have changed the overall thinking regarding the use of a main course on a brig? What is not in doubt is that 19th century RN brigs did carry a main sail.