Sharing Plans and Manuals

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dbdriskell

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#1
I would like to address a rather delicate subject that has always surface on all types of forums and boards and that is the sharing of Original Manufactures Plans, instructions, and Manuals, books, literature, articles.

This is a fine line, but still, I would like to be on the safe side.

:) Please check with the Vendor, Company first to see if they have manuals that you can download or even ask the "builder of his or her ship" if they know if manuals and plans can be download from where they bought their ship.

:) I would like to encourage everyone to be mindful that in most cases the purchased kit contains copyrighted material, and it stirs the conscience of the person if they should copy the plans for a fellow or friend model builder.

:) All it does is keep the conscience clear. I know that I have been caught up in this many, many times. So, please be mindful that not everyone wishes to share their plans.

:) The great thing about SOS Board is that we all love to help each other. I find myself helping more than building my own ship !!!


Here is the part that I personally think is safe. You are having a problem with a construction. You take a picture of the portion of the plan that you are concerned about with notes and whatnot - I have done this many times. This is different (in my opinion) as you are trying to present a demonstration about a problem. I have taken pictures of the "plans" a whole mast assembly to ask someone their opinion on a rigging pattern.

But, things get a little gray area when we start to copy entire plan sets.
Just use good judgement.




I think I will leave this open for discussion as I would like some feedback.

:text-feedback:
 
C

CharlesEdward

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#2
I am in total agreement with Donnie here. I am also a computer gamer and we all know how notorious that industry protects and guards their intellectual property. The music and DVD industry have a very expensive and active ad-campaign regarding the downloading of pirate DVD and CD material.

The ship model industry does sell model kit plans only, and they are copyrighted material even if they are not marked as such. I know that the Sergal plans of the Soverign of the Sea and Soleil Royale are way less expensive than the kits but a perons buying the kit, which includes the plans should not share those complete plans with anybody. I personally file my kit plans away for maybe future scratch build projects.

Partial shots, such as what I used when discussing the "Anchor Lining" of the Montanes are fine. After all you can only see the 2-inch square focus of the part that I was building at the time. I did not mention the manufacturer in that case because the topic was OcCre Montanes, but legally I maybe should have mentioned it, to be on the safe side.

JohnK
 

GaryM

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#3
I agree with everyone. None of use what to loose this site or have it draw any bad attention. Thus, we should think about this in a conservative manner. I have some plans on the wall and and by what was just said, I probably should not have shown any part of them in the building shots and temprarily take them down. I never gave it a thought so this subject was necessary to bring errors to our attention. Thanks Donnie.
 

dbdriskell

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#4
Know one has done any harm. I just brought this topic up for consideration. The part that only concerns me is copying plans and giving them away or re selling them. I do not think that anyone here would be doing that. My motive of this topic is awareness is all. This is why I opened this for discussion. Also, mainly for new-comers to the site as they read in the "Important Forum Updates".
Please carry on guys and gals and have fun !!! :)
 

lauckstreet

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#5
I'd like to chime in on this thread myself. I've been in business for over 14 years. I own Lauck Street Shipyard and I've spent literally thousands of hours building model ships and writing detailed instructions on how to build various models. I earn my living to support my wife and I by selling these detained instructions (practicums) on my website. These practicums are all copyrighted and distributed only by me on CD's. The CD's always are accompanied by a License Agreement that says that when you buy the CD, you own it for life and that you cannot sell it, give it away or make copies of it for someone else. It's not a book, it's software and believe me when I say that it is protected by law. Giving the CD to someone else after you finished building your model is a violation of the License Agreement.

Over the years, I have encountered customers trying to sell their CD's on eBay. I have also encountered non-customers soliciting current customers to give them a copy or just flat out give the CD's to them when the paying customers has finished with it. This has even been condoned in a certain other forum by its moderators.

Everyone should understand that when this sort of thing happens, it is like stealing from me. It takes money out of my pocket when someone gives a CD they bought from me to someone else. My wife and I have really had to struggle over the years to make ends meet. We're retired and lost our entire retirement savings trying to keep the business going in poor economic times. We only have income from this business and a small social security check to support us now.

I would ask that everyone show us the respect for the hard work we have put into our business over the years not just to support ourselves but to help new modelers learn from my experience. We don't steal from you so please don't steal from us by asking one of our customers to give you one of our products that he or she purchased. Buy a copy for yourself and get support from me whenever you need it.

Thank you,

Bob Hunt
 

didit

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#6
interesting indeed

like bob I also am in business Ev owns the lumberyard for model shipwrights. I have plans I drew and research information., articles I wrote etc this is all my property. I do not like to see it copied or resold but it is. a customer buys a Hahn model timbering set and decides he does not want to build it so he sells It, kit and plans. He is reselling the plans. I agree with Donnie it is a fine line he bought the kit with the plans and he owns them so he can do whatever he wants give them away, sell them or throw them away.

if you go into any public library it is full of books all copyrighted but yet the library provides a copy machine so you can copy what you were looking for. any museum you contact for information they will copy it out of a book and send it to you. Now the fine line becomes fuzzy and "fair use" takes effect.

Art, craft or any learned skill is built on the foundations of knowledge that came before it that is how we progress by sharing information and improving it. I see nothing wrong with Donnie taking a picture of a plan or part of it and posting it to ask for more information or anyone making a copy of a page out of a book or from a CD any source and asking for help or sharing it.

the fuzzy fine line becomes clear at the point when you take something and you profit from it, taking advantage of someone is wrong. Sharing information or what you found is not wrong. Giving a plan to a friend is fine making copies of it and selling them is not fine.

I live by simple truths

No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lampstand, and it gives light for all who are in the house.
 
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donfarr

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#7
You MY DEAR FRIEND CONSTANLY AMAZE ME, THE WORDS OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUES CHRIST, one of hiparables explaing to the people, along with the Quote(when a woman loses a coin, does she not sweep and clean the floor until she finds it THEN TELLS HER FRIENDS THAT SHE FOUND HER LOST COIN) please email me Dave let me here from you. MAY GOD BE WITH YOU AND YOURS ALWAYS. Don
 

donfarr

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#8
FOR ONCE I AM UNCERTAIN AND LOST FOR WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, AN EXAMPLE JUST RECENTLY I NEEDED ANOTHR DREMELL 400XPR, WHICH I GOT FROM EBAY QUITE RESONANBLE, DID I DO SOMETHING MORALLY WRONG(GOOD QUESTION), I have also accepted a plan from a friend was not sold I did not think of the consaqunces to the originater of the plans (WILL THINK LONG AND HARD NEXT TIME THIS COMES UP) MY ONLY TAKE IS USE GOOD COMMON SENCE AND BE GUIDED MY YOUR MORALS, tough subject maybe one that has no answer. Don
 

mrshanks

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#9
Since this topic has crossed my path a couple times I think it is good that we discuss it. Let me share my personal experiences and thoughts and I would be glad to hear your opinions. No harm, no foul. First a few facts about me:
- I am retired military and retired technologist. I consider myself an honest person. I don't steal and I don't lie.
- I have been building models for over 50 years. Plastic, resin, wood, radio control, you name it
- I am fortunate to own both a CNC machine and a Laser. These tools were purchased for my Admiral's business www.wellwrittengifts.com
- I am NOT in modeling to make money. It is my passion and hobby.
- I am one of Bob Hunt's most dedicated students. I own ALL of his practicums and am proud of it.
- I have a scratch build project going on with some friends to build a 17th century battle station using Jeff Staudt's free plans. However, these plans are copyrighted.
- I was approached by a moderator of this forum to reproduce this model as a "kit"
- I have politely declined. Don't have time anyway as I have about 200 models to build.

Ok... let's hear your thoughts!!!! Out with it!!! Would it have been legal? Would it have been right? If I made them for free would it have been ok? If I sold them for profit would it have been ok? If I got permission would it have been ok? How do we know I already didn't get permission?

It's a great topic.
 

lauckstreet

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#10
Since this topic has crossed my path a couple times I think it is good that we discuss it. Let me share my personal experiences and thoughts and I would be glad to hear your opinions. No harm, no foul. First a few facts about me:
- I am retired military and retired technologist. I consider myself an honest person. I don't steal and I don't lie.
- I have been building models for over 50 years. Plastic, resin, wood, radio control, you name it
- I am fortunate to own both a CNC machine and a Laser. These tools were purchased for my Admiral's business www.wellwrittengifts.com
- I am NOT in modeling to make money. It is my passion and hobby.
- I am one of Bob Hunt's most dedicated students. I own ALL of his practicums and am proud of it.
- I have a scratch build project going on with some friends to build a 17th century battle station using Jeff Staudt's free plans. However, these plans are copyrighted.
- I was approached by a moderator of this forum to reproduce this model as a "kit"
- I have politely declined. Don't have time anyway as I have about 200 models to build.

Ok... let's hear your thoughts!!!! Out with it!!! Would it have been legal? Would it have been right? If I made them for free would it have been ok? If I sold them for profit would it have been ok? If I got permission would it have been ok? How do we know I already didn't get permission?

It's a great topic.
Hi Mike,

Ask those questions in a group like this and you'll get a dozen different answers. Only an attorney who specializes in copyright law can answer that question unequivocally. This topic has been argued over and over and everybody has their own personal opinions. As a small business owner, i do not feel it is my place to give my opinion on topics such as this in a public forum and I'm not sure I would discuss my opinion privately. I live by the philosophy that opinions are like AH's, everybody's got one. It's usually not an issue until someone challenges what you do and threatens to sue you over some copyright issue. I've been threatened myself over such issues.

As for my practicums, because I market and sell them on CD as software, they fall under another set of laws that came about when computers were invented and software was developed for those computers. It's called intellectual property and there's a bunch of laws covering software. I do know that the License Agreement governs what an end user can do with the software they buy and that's the law. If I put in my License Agreement that you can't sell or give away my software even after you've finished using it, I could sue you if you did and I'd win. Ask any attorney. Ask Kurt Van Dahm because he spoke about that issue recently when I filed a complaint with him about moderators in his forum saying that people could give my practicums away because they're books. He spoke with an attorney about it and the attorney told him that was wrong. The attorney told him that if my License Agreement says you can't do that, then you can't do that, PERIOD. It violates the laws of intellectual property. Intellectual property is not a book. A book is a thing made of paper with pages and a cover. A CD is not a book and any court of law would tell you that.

It's a slippery slope. The key to it is respect. Respect the people who develop products and respect the people who buy those products. If we all could just be honest and show each other that respect, it would be a better world. Since I know you Mike, and I know you're an honest person and a caring person, I respect that and would never ask you to go against your beliefs. If you believe that you would be violating someone's copyright to make a kit, I respect that because I would expect the same from you if the table was turned. Are you right in making that claim? Only an attorney in copyright law could answer that question but even if you're wrong, I would still respect you for being a gentleman about the issue and feeling morally that you shouldn't make the kit for others. Respect. It's a simple word but all too often people lack the respect.

That's all I've got to say on the topic.

Take care,

Bob
 

didit

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#11
it is a quagmire of legal issues we will drowned in details and opinions the truth is simple morals of each of us and as a collective community.


- I have a scratch build project going on with some friends to build a 17th century battle station using Jeff Staudt's free plans. However, these plans are copyrighted.
- I was approached by a moderator of this forum to reproduce this model as a "kit"
- I have politely declined. Don't have time anyway as I have about 200 models to build.

Ok... let's hear your thoughts!!!! Out with it!!! Would it have been legal? Would it have been right? If I made them for free would it have been ok? If I sold them for profit would it have been ok? If I got permission would it have been ok? How do we know I already didn't get permission
?


any gain on your part is someone else's loss because, it is a question of balance. making this kit and giving it away creates an imbalance someone else's loss so your undermining than instant karma will bring things back into balance.


there are thousands of ideas out there pick an original why do what was already done? and if it is questionable as to what your doing why do it in the first place?

selling for profit without giving a share back to the copyright holder? not good

permission from said copyright holder sure go for it


what is a tough one is taking concepts, half baked ideas, research material, even objects and kits and molding them into something of your own design I don't know
 

didit

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#12
tens of thousands of copyrighted things are sold every hour and resold.

keep it simple

if you bought it you own it and it is yours to do whatever you want because it is the original item. UNLESS there is some sort of agreement with who you bought it from.

taking anything and making copies and selling them that is something different
 

donfarr

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#13
Dave Agree with you completly, BUT IT IS A MORAL DELAMY, TO ME like I said before, common sense and your moral compass should guide you. Don
 

didit

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#14
FOR ONCE I AM UNCERTAIN AND LOST FOR WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, AN EXAMPLE JUST RECENTLY I NEEDED ANOTHR DREMELL 400XPR, WHICH I GOT FROM EBAY QUITE RESONANBLE, DID I DO SOMETHING MORALLY WRONG(GOOD QUESTION),

no not at all the price was agreed on from seller to buyer you didn't sneak over his house and steal it you may of got it for a steal but that was agreed on.
like i bid on stuff and the biding starts at .99 cents the item is worth $10.00 but no one else bid so I got it for .99 cents


I have also accepted a plan from a friend was not sold I did not think of the consequences to the originator of the plans (WILL THINK LONG AND HARD NEXT TIME THIS COMES UP) MY ONLY TAKE IS USE GOOD COMMON SENCE AND BE GUIDED MY YOUR MORALS, tough subject maybe one that has no answer. Don


originator of the plans sold that "original" item to someone that person now owns the item it belong to him. He can do anything he wants with it even sell it for 10 times what he paid for it.

Example

years ago I bought original prints from Harold Hahn at what I would call a "steal" they belong to me and I sold them to someone else. Mr. Hahn was paid for the print at an agreed price at that time there are no consequences to be considered when I sold the prints. The value has gone way up it was an investment on my part years ago.
If I take the original prints I have in my personal collection and make reproductions that to me is a no, no unless I enter into an agreement with the Hahn estate to make reproductions and both parties share the profit.
 

Brian077

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#15
Question gentlemen.
Do you think its acceptable to copy a page from an out of print practicum on a particular item, and share it on the forum in a non for profit way ? Perhaps if credit was given to the owner ?
 

lauckstreet

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#17
Hi Zoltan,

I appreciate your charts but with my old eyes, I can't read hardly a word on them. The text is just too small. Could you perhaps post a link to the charts where we might find higher resolution versions that can be enlarged enough for me to read?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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