Santissima Trinidade 1:90 Scale OcCre

Anguirel

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#1
Hi,

Ever since I felt the need do to another ship model, at the beginning of this year I started looking around for model kit and brands. My first thought was to build the HMS Victory, but although this is not my first model kit (I have the HMS Endeavour and São João Baptista, I did them log ago in what seems a different life) I thought that the HMS Victory could be too much skill and money. So I started to look at other ship that participated in the battle of Trafalgar and narrow it down to two: the Santissima Trinidad and the Santa Anna. In the end I went to the Santissima Trinidad. After that first decision I started my research of the ship. My knowledge of the ST could by resumed to she being the ship with more guns, that it was the flag ship of the Spaniards and it was taken during the battle and later sunk in the storm that follow it so suffice to say I needed to do my home work.

At the time the kit arrived my idea was to build the ship following the model with two differences: the stern and the forecastle. for these alteration I was going to follow the model of the Real Carlos from the Madrid's Naval Museum. My problem now is that I feel I have enough information to build her as she left Cuba but I'm afraid this would require more skill then the one I have.

Did anyone went through the same predicament? I would really like to hear your opinions as them might shed some light and help me decide the best way to go.

Now to the build itself. The problem started as soon as I open the box. as I was going though the different elements of the kit I notice that the front half of the false keel was bended.








I tried to put it back to the original position, soaked it in hot water and left it pressed for two days. on the second day, in the morning before work I looked at it and it was dry and perfectly flat I was a happy man. Wend I came back from work in the end of the day it was back in its original bended position...
Since I couldn´t get it right and the solution of the man at the store was: buy a new one (they had one for sale) or do what I did I decided to go a different way. do a few holes in the frames and use some wedges to force the false keel in to the right position.





Because I would never get a perfect square alignment of the frames I didn't glue the frames to the false keel so I will have some freedom of movement when placing the deck planks.



As you can see from the last photo the first frame is no aligned (none of the frames in the first half of the false keel are) but I can ajust it because they are not glued...

:)
 

GaryM

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#2
I would lightly soak it again and us an iron to iron it flat. Heat causes the molecules of wood to actually realign. I would iron it until the wood is dry. Then I would use a straight piece of wood and glue where it will not be in the way of the build but will stop the wood from bending again. Let the glue set for 24 hours before raising the piece and verifying the straightness.
 

Donnie

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#3
I never thought about that Gary - (glad we have you around).

Anguirel,
To be honest, I really did not know that much about the Santisima Trinidad when I started mine. Sadly to say, I do not know much more than I did. Partly due to the fact of all of my research just came up with little. There were times that I spent hours trying to find more info.

Seems like you know more than I do at this stage. I am happy to see another ST join the ranks. I know of another friend that is going to start the ST very soon. I need to nudge him to get his build log going too. He is a member here too. I will write him an email tonight and encourage him to join in.

Donnie
 

Anguirel

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#4
Hi,

There is nothing I can do about the false keel now in my desperation, due to the failure of my attempt and the reply off the store I glue the seventh (if not mistaken) and the first frames. But you suggestion GaryM, I suspect will be useful at some point.

As for my knowledge of the ST, right now Donnie is more them I would want because its not letting me chose what version to aim for.

but that's a philosophical question that can still wait. More pressing is the deck planking. I found this ST plan during my research:



I want to use this layout but can't make sense of the 110 measurement in the fifth row and the lack of measurement in the next plank in the same row. I simulated the planking using just 110 for that row and it these not make sense. In the end I assumed that the drawing is at scale I came up with 500 and 110 for the fifth row, So this is how it looks like:



Is there any other interpretation of this...

:)
 

GaryM

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#5
I do not understand and it does not look like anything I have every seen anywhere. Everything on a ship is usually balanced and follows some hard rules that have been learned over time. Where the decking method you show came from, I do not know but would like to find out if such a thing existed and what was its reason.
 

Anguirel

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#6
Hi,

The deck plan comes from the Madrid's Naval Museum, I got them from this site:

http://santisima-trinidad.astillero.net/

but I haven't seen anything even similar anywhere...
 

GaryM

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#7
Interesting since the background on the site only uses a 2 step planking scheme and the pictures of the model being built clearly uses the 2 step method for planking the decks.
 

Anguirel

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#8
Hi,

Now that you mention there is a section of several examples of ships built using the plans and none of them uses the planking skeme in the plans...

:)
 

Donnie

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#9
Anguirel,

I must apologize. I am glad that you posted that scheme. I could never figure out the 110. Now, I see at least what you are referring to. My mistake.

I also must admit too that I have never seen anything like with the 110.

Ok, I am really going to be dumb here: (as an example of TWO rows only shown)

Is the 600 repeated on the same row like | 600 | 600 | 600 | 600 |
Is the 220 repeated on the same row like | 220 | 220 | 220 | 220 | 220 | 220 | 220 | 220 |

or is each row a combination of different lengths?
 

Anguirel

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#10
Hi,

No problem Donnie, one image is worth a thousand words...
This is the interpretation I made:



1 - Solid line the plank runs from one end to the other, like Donnie said it's one plank next to the other always the same size
2 - Dashed line, the plank does not end there it end somewhere outside of the drawing
3 - the fifth row is were thinks start to change, mow we have two different sizes 110 and the other is not written. I used 110 and 500
4 - Up until now the planks seed to be centrer (black line) but in this row the planks is not centred (I moved the beginning of the 330 plank to the centre)
5 - line I drew defining the centre

Since this plans are from Spain I assume this measurements are in mm, so I used 600=6cm, 550=5.5cm ...

:)
 
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#11
Anguirel,
The plans from the Astillero.net site are 1/75 scale which are a bit smaller than the scale I´m using for my Trinidad. First, you should start with the third battery and the continue with the fourth and the castle on the structure of the ship. This is how it is done:
Step 1.For the first row take a 600mm long plank and place it at the stern edge of the deck over the center line... that is 2.5mm on each side of the center line (if the plank´s width is 5mm). Keep adding 600mm planks over the center line until you reach the opposite edge of the deck at the bow. The center line planks hide the central gap from the edges of the deck halves from the kit. That´s the reason why you should do the deck planking once you have placed the deck parts over the false keel/frames structure.
Step 2.Next, cut a 220mm plank and placed it next to the 600mm plank from above and continue adding 600mm planks until you reach the edge of the bow just like in step 1.
Step 3. Here we use a 440mm long plank to start and then we repeat the process with 600mm long planks like in the previous steps.
Step 4. Glue a 550mm plank at the beginning and the continue with the 600mm planks up to the deck edge at the bow.
Step 5. On this step we use a 110mm long plank to begin and the follow up with the 600mm long planks like we have done in the previous steps.
Step 6. Placed a 330 mm long plank and the add the rest of 600mm planks to that row.
Step 7. Go back to Step 1.
This set up is Known as 123456, there is a 1234 and a 12345,etc.
Hope this explanation helps you with the decking.
 

Anguirel

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#12
Hi,

Anaga, what do you mean "continue adding 600mm planks until you reach the edge of the bow just like in step 1" after the 220mm plank? It should be continue adding 220mm planks until you reach... Right? And on step 5 if the schematic is at scale the second plank is bigger than 110mm, it's between 550 and 440mm.
 
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#13
Anguirel,
That´s right the only planks you need to worry about are the ones at the beginning (stern edge of the deck). After that, use same length planks (600mm) on all the rows. On row 5 you do the same and start with a 550mm plank. What´s confusing is that what you are seeing is not the stern edge of the deck but a middle portion of it. To get the pattern you see on the drawing look at the length of the plank on row 1 (600mm) the rest of the planks will end at different places from the length of plank 1 because they start at different lengths at the stern.The drawing is confusing because on rows 2 and 5 you see other lines that should not be there. I´m sending you a drawing with different plank decking set ups from my notes via e-mail because the upload attachment is not working. Also you can do a little experiment: make rows starting with planks lengths 600,220,440, 550,110,330 and 600mm and add several (3 or 4) 600mm planks to each row and you´d see the decking pattern come alive. Remember the 600mm plank on row 1 should be placed over the center line of the deck so it hides the gap between the deck parts from the kit.
 
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#14
Anguirel,
I forgot to add an alternative deck planking method PDF:
http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/Deck_PlankingIIbuttshifts.pdf
Cheers
 

Anguirel

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#15
hi,

Ok, now that makes sense Anaga (in row 2 and 5 there are lines that should not be there). Now the other problem, the measurements. If they are in mm and at 1/75 scale, to transform that to 1/90 scale it would be 600=500, 550=458, 440=366, 330=275, 220=183 and 110=91 in mm.
If that's the case the lower deck is way smaller them 500mm there would be no pattern at all. Do you think this is 60.0mm?
 
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#16
Anguirel,
The problem with Kits is that many times take short cuts regarding the scale. I believe the OcCre instructions called for 650mm long planks for the decking from the 1X5mm strips they provide. A 650mm long plank at 1/90 is about 585 cm (almost 6 meters) long in real life.... I suppose there are trees that long from where planks can be made.Check how Donnie did his decking and see if you like the proportions and look of it. The deck sizes I believe are long enough for any pattern to show up... check this blog:
http://blogdejulianjaramillo.blogspot.com.es/search/label/Colocaci%C3%B3n%20de%20las%20cuadernas%20en%20la%20falsa%20quilla%20y%20forrado%20y%20colocaci%C3%B3n%20de%20las%20cubiertas
I think he follows the same steps as the De Agostini magazine.
 

Donnie

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#17
I chose the 50:50 layout, and to be honest here - I do not remember what was I thinking about when I did this. This was my first major build. I would have to go back to my own build log to see the logic that I used. I might need to go back to the original OcCre parts booklet and see what "length" they suggested for the deck plank(s).
In a while I will look into this and get back to you all.

It is clear that the both of you have more knowledge about this than (at the present time) I started mine. I wish I were an expert, but I can help only as much as I know of. I certainly do not want to confuse anyone. (I am just being humble)
 

catopower

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#18
Hi Anguirel,

I'm not sure if I'm following all of the conversation completely, but I just wanted to suggest that it's best to keep in mind why the pattern exists and maybe that will make some of the decisions easier.

As been mentioned, the pattern exists because planks are not available in infinite lengths, they are limited to available trees. Most sources suggest that about 20-24 feet for a plank is good, or roughly 6 or 7 meters. The weakest part of the planking is at the butts of the planking, so you want those butts spaced apart so as not to create weak areas in a deck. There is always a pattern unless it's in an area that can be fully planked using full-length planks. So maybe that answers the question about the planks on the lower deck? Not sure if I understood.

Anyway, butts are always located on a deck beam, so looking across a deck, the butts should exactly line up. This is really important because If they don't line up, at least to a ship modeler, it's really obvious (probably to some non-ship modelers as well)

I'd suggest penciling in deck beams across the subdeck using your pattern measurements as a guide. Then, don't worry as much about the exact length of the planks as much as cutting the planks so they fit the beams you drew. It's more important that the butt of the planks are all aligned than to make the lengths exactly to the measurements. Use your pattern as a guide, but keep in mind that the butts have to meet at a deck beam.

My apologies if I've completely misunderstood some of the questions about the planking pattern here!

Clare
 

Anguirel

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#19
Hi Catopower,

Now that makes a lot of sense... and it makes thing much easy to do.
The first question was about the pattern that didn't make any sense to me (even more now after your explication) Anaga answered that by explaining the pattern (123456) and pointing out that some lines in the drawing should not be there.
The other question was about the plank length, by the schematic, once again the numbers didn't made sense but after what you said the length is determined by the spacing of the deck beams (in combination with the pattern adopted).

Thanks
 

Anguirel

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#20
Hi,

After much research and banging my head against the plans I think I got a plank layout I'm pleased with. Now the only thing left is one small detail, in images of HMS Victory's deck I saw in the net there are treenails in every position where a plank meets a deck beam and not just at buts. I simulated that for the upper deck and my only fear is that the all thing became too busy. Here is an image of two options, let me know your opinions...


one treenail were the planks meet the deck beams


two treenail were the planks meet the deck beams (this is the option used in the HMS Victory)

:)
 
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