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didit

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#41
defining "exotic woods"

I live in the upper parts of North America I would love to use citrus wood for modeling but it does not grow around these parts and for me to get enough for a model it would be very expensive because it has to come from southern California where it is sold as firewood and very common not exotic at all to those folks. On the other hand Black Cherry is exotic for folks in southern California and I use it as firewood to heat my house.

using the term spending big money on exotic wood actually refers to using wood found locally you do not have to use what you are told to use and spend a small fortune trying to get it. Unless you live in the artic there is something usable for model ship building in your area
 

didit

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#42
what other groups?

what I am saying is generic it has been a year now that I have been trying to gather enough information on the engine room of steam ships to build a model of a X section of the steam frigate Mississippi.

Some model engineering groups will not give you the time of day let along information on the workings of a steam engine. Some museums has extensive libraries but no one is going to go look for something, you have to do that yourself or hire someone to do the research.

so ok!

I can see the point of view taken by some of these groups not to say it is right or wrong I am not to judge that, I am just saying I can see it from their point of view.

I spent a year now researching, and it is expensive buying books, hiring researchers etc. then the sheer amount of time learning how to draw in cad create 3d models and developing the skills to bring the project together.

to have someone ask "hey can you send me your CAD files and the STL print files so I can build a model of that engine room" and by the way include some sort of instructions of how to build it.

there is a lot more to offering a building project than meets the eye.
it either take a fool or a very generous person to just give away years of work. The first thing that comes to mind is heck no you start from square 1 like I did and build it from the ground up. or it will cost you for the information.

even the best humanitarians and deeply religious people among us have a limit of how far they will go and how much sacrifice they are willing to give to a cause.
Where that line is drawn can be anywhere, some groups only accept the top 1% of accomplished masters others accept anyone.
 

epicdoom

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#43
We are open for the 1% as well for the 99% of modelers.
You do not have to like it, but we have to accept decisions others are making, and definitely these people are no morons.

that is correct the 1% the master builders are NOT morons

there is a saying "knowledge without attitude" that is where we are and there are others with a the attitude of we are better than everyone and we won't help you, your on your own and when you are good enough then come see us.
True words and this is why I love this forum as apposed to others I've been a member of. I saw so many folks work get picked apart on other forums mine included. Now let me tell you I'm probably the easiest person to get along with I take criticism very well I learn from it and move forward, but some folks don't and they get hurt feelings which leads to arguments and harsh words. I even saw a good builder tell a new builder it would be better to burn his attempt at building the ship then continue to build the crap he was making from the kit. I'm not one to jump into others affairs, but I just couldn't bite my tongue any longer and I told the that good builder off and honestly had he been standing in front of me he would be gumming his food till his false teeth came in. everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. Those opinions shouldn't be hurtful there is no excuse for that. The old saying " if you have anything nice to say don't say anything" applies.

The attitude with some builders is many times greater then the work they produce, yet they think because they have built a lot of ship models they are kings. Sorry, but this isn't the case. I have built a lot of ships and my work is still lacking, I have a ways to go yet. I am my biggest critic because I can see what others are doing and I know when my skills don't measure up. The Beauty of things is in the eye of the beholder, if your happy with what your doing then no other opinions matter, simple as that. To me things such as wood selection is subjective, sure it would be nice to build in the same wood as the actual ship was built and for the most part you can worrying about things like Grain is up to the builder. If your ok with large grain out of scale then go for it its your choice. we have folks in this hobby who stick by certain rules for accuracy some want perfection 100% accurate and will accept no less, some just want to build ships be it for the love or just to pass the time. Exotic woods are awesome and I do use them in my bow and guitar making. I've used them included in kits. would I buy them for ships yes and no if I were looking for contrast and didn't want to use paint then yes. if I don't really need it and can save money that could help buy another ship then no. I've seen some work that was so spectacular you just stand there in trying to wrap you mind around what appears to be complete perfection and wondering how in the world will I ever get to that level. I then remember that its unlikely that its absolutely perfect there is always atleast one mistake, it could be in accurately shaping, placement, precise measuring I could go on forever. To me these little things are acceptable because no full size real ship was ever built to absolute perfection the odds for something like that are unfathomable to be so perfect in every respect.
 
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#44
Wow. Love all the comments. I'm also in the "Old F___" club. Got some of the same health problems as other members and refuse to give up and sit still. I've always enjoyed trying something new. I've build, repaired, programmed PC's for years and spent many a day building some of networks that so may people take for granted. I've built rubber band powered balsa planes, RC planes, plastic planes, plastic ships, dabbled in HO, O, N scale trains. I currently have a indoor G scale layout thats been a work in progress for the last 20 years. My foray into shipbuilding was the gift of a wooden ship kit. I'm enjoying the process and have used this site to gain a lot knowledge, swap ideas and I just love log in the morning with a cup of coffee and browse the various topics.

I don't know if the the younger generations appreciate what's offered here or even has any interest in this type of hobby. But I have observed that those who were in the younger generation in the late 60's, 70's, 80's are now driving the updated muscle cars of those years, playing the LP's and tapes of those years, because their incomes allow them to buy now what could not buy back then. Things change over time and I think leisure time will once again be in the forefront as "new" older people find that creating something unique by hand gives one a lot of pleasure and satisfaction.
 

didit

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#45
don started this topic titled "projects" what he is referring to is over the last few years various small groups formed to brain storm the idea of taking a forum such as this one and turning it into something like a school for the art of model sip building. That is much harder to do than anyone ever thought, there are many obstacles to over come.

from the start there has always been the guilds, the band of brothers, the covens, the high priests and secrete societies. you do not walk in and join they select you. The reason even the top 1% don't know all the answers so you have to be able to give as well as take.at that 1% level.
Looking at the internal structure there is the hierarchy the masters, the journeymen the apprentice the inductees

ship building for real was a protected guild of masters. these guys were the top end of the social structure. They were educated in a number of disciplines such as math, mechanical engineering, art and drafting, civil engineering, architecture

becoming a site that teaches it becomes a guild that require master builders not only skilled in the art buy also to be able to take that knowledge and transform it into a teaching aid that can be understood by the beginners.
then the staff is needed Prototype builders, draftsmen, web designers, librarians and archivists to sort and format information, hands on people for machine work, 3d printing, production mold making, laser cutters. Even a way to finance projects, there is a lot of up front money needed before anything can be offered to the public.

so a topic that once was talked about in back rooms is now open to public opinion
 

shipbuilder

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#46
In my humble opinion, (that doesn't count for much, I knw) the only way to rise above every other forum would be to concentrate on scratchbuilding. Assembling kits is too much like "painting by numbers!" I know this will bring many screams of anguish, and I am not trying to insult anyone, or even cause an argument, but you don't see many painting by numbers portraits or landscapes in national art galleries!
Bob
 

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#47
Dave you are exactly right, YOU TURNED ME ON TO WOODS LIKE BEECH AND POPLAR using a natrual stain the beech looks like OAK, both are very easy to work with, easy to bend easy to sand, great finish, I think what DAVE AND I AND OTHERS ARE SAYING is not saying if you want to spend your money for whatever reason SPEND, BUT DO NOT TRY TO FORCE THAT ON ME, THAT IS YOUR PREFERENC, NOT MINE, AGAIN I GIVE YOU RESPECT FOR WHAT YOU WANT TO BUILD DO THE SAME FOR ME, there are 2 aspects that I think what DAVE IS TALKING ABOUT ONE IS THE HOBBY AS A HOBBY AND THOSE WHO BUILD FOR THE HOBBY, 2 is the FINANCIAL END OF THE HOBBY, personified in the LUMBERYARD, MASTER KORBAL, ZHL, and others they are as indispesible to the HOBBY just as much as the MASTER BUILDERS, NEW DEVELOPMENTS SUCH AS 3-D MODELING AND INSTRUCTIONS, also WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE MIKE41 TO CREATE BUILDS FOR FORUMS SOS IN PARTICULAR, another way to learn, we need it all always taking in account the masses of the HOBBY(THE BASE AS CAN BE SAID) we need both the younger modelers and old SHITS LIKE ME WHO DO NOT WANT TO GO SILENTLY INTO ABYSS, the retierees, looking to keep there minds active even if the physical attrubutes are not what they once were, DAVE IS SUPER CORRECT< WHEN HE SAYS THE EASIER LESS TIME CONSUMING BUILDS ARE BETTER FOR US UNDERLINGS BOTH YOUG AND OLD THEN SOMETHING THAT TAKES YEARS TO BUILD< WE THE OLD SHITS JUST DO NOT HAVE THE TIME AND THE YOUG TO MANY THINGS TO DO,(WORK, FAMILY, OTHER DUTIES etc, so the young and old BLEND AND MESH) just like I will buy tools to MAKE MY BUILDS, BETTER, EASIER, AND FASTER) so I look to the new TECHNOLGY TO DO THE SAME, I MAY NOT KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND DO NOT CARE, but it is THE RESULTS THA I CARE ABOUT, I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW THE DETAILS OF HOW YOU DO 3-D MODELING or 3-D INSTRUCTIONS, JUST NEED TO KNOW HOW TO USE THESE TOOLS TO MAKE MY BUILDS, BETTER, EASIER AND FASTER, MY 2 CENTS AND OPIONS,NEED MORE ON THIS TOPIC FROM ALL SIDES, Don PS I RELISH A GOOD FRIENDLY DEBATE WHERE EVERYONE LEARNS SOMETHING
 

epicdoom

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#48
In my humble opinion, (that doesn't count for much, I knw) the only way to rise above every other forum would be to concentrate on scratchbuilding. Assembling kits is too much like "painting by numbers!" I know this will bring many screams of anguish, and I am not trying to insult anyone, or even cause an argument, but you don't see many painting by numbers portraits or landscapes in national art galleries!
Bob
There is much truth in that Bob. The only issue I have is kits are an easy way to break into the hobby, everything one needs is included and some kits include tools. From those kits a hobbyist can glean just what is required for a scratch build he learns to read plans which will help in drawing his own later. So I think Kits are an absolute Must have for a starting point. All that said I think learning to scratch build from the onset would put one at a higher skillset much faster then working through the kits from beginner to advanced but that also requires that beginner to find a mentor.
 

donfarr

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#49
Joe, but there is a middle ground that I call semi kits, LIKE WHAT THE LUMBERYARD SELLS, they require a little higher level of skills then the simple kits, and then there is KIT BASHING THAT I DO FOR QIUTE A LOT OF KITS THAT TO IS A SEMI KIT, UPGRDING BOTH MATERIALS, AND METHODS of building, YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY CORRECT IN SAYING YOU NEED A MENTOR, NOT THE KIND THAT I HAD EXPERIENCE WITH, WILL NOT MENTION IT ON THE OPEN FORUM,BUT YOU CAN SEND ME A PM OR EMAIL AND I WILL GET INTO IT, BUT A GOOD MENTER IS TOTALLY NEEDED FOR THE INTERMEDIATE BUILDER TO JUMP INTO SCRATCH BUILDING, THIS IS WHERE THE NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS A NEEDED PLACE, 3-D MODELING AND 3-D INSTRUCTIONS. Don
 

shipbuilder

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#50
Joe, but there is a middle ground that I call semi kits, LIKE WHAT THE LUMBERYARD SELLS, they require a little higher level of skills then the simple kits, and then there is KIT BASHING THAT I DO FOR QIUTE A LOT OF KITS THAT TO IS A SEMI KIT, UPGRDING BOTH MATERIALS, AND METHODS of building, YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY CORRECT IN SAYING YOU NEED A MENTOR, NOT THE KIND THAT I HAD EXPERIENCE WITH, WILL NOT MENTION IT ON THE OPEN FORUM,BUT YOU CAN SEND ME A PM OR EMAIL AND I WILL GET INTO IT, BUT A GOOD MENTER IS TOTALLY NEEDED FOR THE INTERMEDIATE BUILDER TO JUMP INTO SCRATCH BUILDING, THIS IS WHERE THE NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS A NEEDED PLACE, 3-D MODELING AND 3-D INSTRUCTIONS. Don
 

shipbuilder

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#51
I never had a mentor! When I was about 8, my parents just told me I was not getting any more kits, and if I wanted to carry on building ships, I should just "get on with it!" About a week later, I was given a small tool box with a few simple tools in it, knife, chisels, plane, archimedian drill, coping saw, screwdrivers, pliers. Plus a box of wood offcuts from the local joinery shop. I still have the toolbox and most of the tools, and still use the same vice that is now over 100nyears old - Bob
Bob An early model 1952.jpg My first workbench 1952.jpg
 

epicdoom

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#52
I never had a mentor! When I was about 8, my parents just told me I was not getting any more kits,
but you got to build atleast one kit before trying scratch. Some folks can just do this stuff, but most cant. I was a good shot as a kid with a rifle a very good shot my father would set up a BB on a coffee stir and I would shoot that BB off it with a BB gun It started by me shooting the flame off a match I was just naturally able to shoot very well with zero training my brothers couldn't hit water is they fell out of a boat.
 

shipbuilder

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#53
They were only small balsa wood kits, each about 3 inches long, Santa Maria, Golden Hind, Mayflower, that sort of thing. They only cost about three shillings (several cents in US) and took about an hour to build. I was pretty useless at scratchbuilding for years, (although I thought they were pretty good at the time) and it was not until the early 70s that I finally began to improve through dogged persistance more than anything else!
 

epicdoom

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#56
I built 2 small boats before I attempted a ship my first was the San Mateo. I definately bit off more then I could chew with that one. By the time i put the last piece if rigging string on it it looked like the San MapukeO was terrible, but i did at least finish the kit. I think it would have been better for me if I had built a solid hull or two and maybe a couple small beginner ships before taking on that big one. I came from balsa plane building stick and tissue kits and eventually scratch builds and then large 6' WS nitro planes from basswood balsa and covered with monokote. So I had wood object building skills, but planes are way easier then ships which I didn't count on. My second ship was the Thermoplae from Segal I believe it was and that ship came out amazing. looks a bit rough right now because the person I gave it to didn't take care of it properly and its 10 years old.
20180823_183105.jpg
 

didit

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#57
it takes the same skills to build a kit as it does to scratch build

the difference between success and failure is the information needed and that can be taught and provided on sites such as this one.

the degree of achievement is up to you and also your natural abilities and how much you personally want to invest in time and effort to become a master builder or not.

if a site put forth the efforts to produce projects as lesson plans to help builders is it worth the time money and effort? that's what I want to know
 

didit

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#58
so many times people say they look at the masters work and say why bother I can never do that. Ya! true sometimes it take a lot of natural talent

yup everyone who takes guitar lessons is not going to be a Eric Clapton but thats no reason not to take lessons. Same with scratch building you may not achieve being a master builder but no reason not to give it a go.


Eric Patrick Clapton, CBE (born 30 March 1945), is an English rock and blues guitarist, singer, and songwriter. He is the only three-time inductee to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: once as a solo artist and separately as a member of the Yardbirds and of Cream. Clapton has been referred to as one of the most important and influential guitarists of all time Clapton ranked second in Rolling Stone magazine's list of the "100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time" and fourth in Gibson's "Top 50 Guitarists of All Time".He was also named number five in Time magazine's list of "The 10 Best Electric Guitar Players" in 2009.

Clapton has been the recipient of 18 Grammy Awards, and the Brit Award for Outstanding Contribution to Music. In 2004 he was awarded a CBE at Buckingham Palace for services to music. He has received four Ivor Novello Awards from the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, including the Lifetime Achievement Award.
 

shipbuilder

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#59
That's one of the commonest phrases that I hear "I can never do that!" I have largely given up trying to convince people they can if they try! Here I am picking up a length of wire rigging with tweezers. I dip each end in glue, and just place it in position on the model. No knots anywhere. A straight piece and a curved piece is shown. It doesn't matter which way I look at it, I cannot see what is so difficult in this method. The wire is made straight by stretching it slightly with two pair of pliers. When you release it, it does not spring back like an elastic band, but remains straight. But the comments continue - "I could never do that! :oops:
Bob
wire rigging (Large).JPG
 

epicdoom

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#60
I fight the old "I can never do that!" with my Grandson. With him though I think he doesn't want to disappoint me, which he could never do so long as he at least tries. The Disappointment is not having a go at it. I taught myself How to play guitar, not a single lesson, I took to it easily for some reason. No one else in all of my family has ever played a musical instrument. I have been able to do a lot of things because I'm not afraid to at least try. My favorite saying in life is "Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained" While I think having some level of intelligence probably helps with things I don't believe its an absolute requirement. I believe we can all do the things we want to do if we get over the fear of Failure. God knows I have failed at many things in life, but I don't give up its not in my DNA to do so. I've learned to study and research the things I want to do or know about, that helps transition into actually doing it much easier for the first time. Some people just don't have that build it ability innate in them, but I refuse to believe they are unteachable. I couldn't fight a lick growing up, got beat up all the time till I learned Kempo. It took time for me get over the fear of being hit, My brother Bill fighter right out of the womb, scrappy would stand toe to toe with men as a kid and he would win many of the fights. I learned that, but I had to be taught to do it, him it was innate in him.
 
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