historical builds vs hobby builds

didit

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#1
Hi Dave, Where will the dedicated library be, was very interested in the concept of the original postings on the NBM site, understand fully the amount of work you had to do with very little help, I still think it should be on a site MAYBE GETTING HELP FROM SOME ONE AS A RESEARCHER/ AND LIBRARAN for the NBM SITE, you and I have had discussions on this before to bad the people we had thought were going to do this deserted us, but some qualified people are still there if we ask, maybe some international member could step up and do this it would really help the site overall as well, maybe the works are not as well known internationally as it should be, PM ME FOIR MORE DISCUSSION DO NOT WANT TO HOG UP THIS THREAD. Don

ok lets just start a new topic rather than hog up another one


There is more information available out there than we can ever catalog and repurpose it into information model builders can use. I think the question is why bother? it takes a massive amount of work by very few people willing to devote the time and effort.

As the title suggest the vast majority is content with just building whatever comes in the box. Even scratch builders settle for quick answers.

I can understand this just by the time spent with the research of the frigate Mississippi its been a year now just searching for people who might have information.

planking a hull

there are original plank expansion drawings showing the correct way to plank a hull, a number of articles, build logs and tutorials on how it is done all over the web. Still time after time you see some very creative solutions to the problem, not correct but it solves the problem at hand and actually it looks ok.

hull framing has always been a big question of how it is done. The answers are out there if you bother to look.

builders will set frames apart with a wide space between them actually warship hulls were almost a solid wall of timber like this

princess charlotte closeup.jpg

or hulls were frames like this which is logical you only have to build 1/3 of the frames and just fill in between them with loose timbers

nancy.jpg

builders will use chocks to join timbers yes they were used in some British naval yards but that's about it frames commonly used lap scarfs or butt the ends together

L floor 6.jpg L floor 8.jpg

this information is in the archaeological research data

a lot of the drawings and information at hand can not be used by the average hobby builder because they do not understand it. A prime example of this is me I have 112 drawings for a steam engine I can draw it in CAD but I have no idea how it goes together or works bottom line I do not understand what I am looking at. Same with many hobby level model ship builders.
What happens over time is builders fill in the blanks with whatever then that becomes the standard or accepted truth.
 
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donfarr

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#2
Dave on planking and I think i speak for a lot of novice and intermediate builders, that the planking MAKES OR BREAKS THE MODEL we all agree on that I think,,,take my problem I avoid the double plank kits, I can not see how yo can take such THIN MATERIAL and taper and install and sand it to get the asthetic look you are striving for, even the single planked POB kits have a proble of the taper hpw long where to stop the use of drop planks and stellars the best of my model was useing spiling. one problem and the main problem I have is useing material to be able to set the compass on can not keep the bond paper in the proper place, it keeps moving that is if you have spaces between the bulkheads, the next problem is determing the number of planks to be used (LINEING OFF THE model into bands and doing the math, the so called Dutch method that was shown is a good alternitive I think to the SPILEING METHOD EVEN THOUGH IT MAY NOT BE HISTORICLLY CORRECT, the additional material needed for spileing I can live with, it offsets the pieces I have to trash because it does not look right, maybe tackle some of these items uing ( 3-D as a guide to understanding the process). THANKS Don
 

didit

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#3
the categories are

1 historical models based on research taken to the limit and advanced skills

2 artistic models based on refined skills of a builder and knowledge of the subject

3 scratch models based on limited available information

4 hobby models based on whatever is in the box


don your skills and knowledge are getting better and better with each model so your like between 3 and 2 and moving up.

watch and learn what these builders are doing on the forum with build projects

some builders push themselves to shoot for category 1 others are fine and content in number 4 some just want number 3 middle of the road sort of thing.
 

donfarr

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#4
Dave, Thank you very much for your kind words, it is BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU, MIKE41, AND MANY OTHERS THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE, I strive to do the best I can, age does have an effect, TO ME THE WORST WORDS IN MODEL SHIP BUILDING IS I AM ALMOST THERE, IT SHOULD BE I GOT IT,,, the efforts of you and Mike41 with his excelent projects and being very patience with answers are MOST HELPFULL, sure learning a lot from these projects. SO THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE Don
 

didit

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#5
maybe tackle some of these items uing ( 3-D as a guide to understanding the process). THANKS Don

just for the heck of it I contacted freelance 3D modelers and sent them CAD drawings to create a 3D model. the average cost starts at $55.00 an hour and up to $90.00 an hour for such services. At that cost to create a 3D model as a learning tool or as part of instructions would cost thousands and thousands of $$. No kit company would even consider investing that kind of money in the development of a kit and expect a profit.

Even to expect 3D modeling as a learning tool as part of build logs is rare you might find 1 3D artist in a 1,000 if that.

if it is creating the Hahn library, posting 119 photos of the Oliver Cromwell, creating research data bases, how to articles or whatever requires a staff of people and many hours of work.

if I were to create a log on a step by step how to develop modeling plans using CAD it is quite worthless to the majority because it is a very small group that actually knows enough about CAD to benefit from the effort.
so I am told it takes 10,000 hours to master a skill no one is going to invest that effort to learn 3D modeling or CAD to build one model.
 

didit

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#6
the only way is the slow process of amassing build logs and building projects

I have talked to customers who do scratch building and I ask them why not create a build log?

the answer I get makes one wonder

it is because

few will do it because they feel they are not qualified and fear they might be leading other model builders down the wrong path or giving the wrong information. Things like planking a hull the wrong way or using the wrong historical framing in a hull or the wrong rigging for a ship historical mistakes, building mistakes and on it goes. This stops many builders from doing build logs.

so what do we do as a group start a build log with "let the builder beware" or "I guessed on a lot of this" or "I did it my way" right or wrong or "who cares" it is just a fun hobby

it is incredible how few in the hobby are willing to offer information in the form of build logs including myself I hesitate putting anything up on this steam engine because I do not know what I am doing, I am guessing.

I see this in say archaeology or sciences no one will venture a "guess" in fear they might be wrong.

going through journal articles when they were published and based on data known at the time it all seemed correct. But as time went by and new data came to light it proved these articles were dead wrong. So what do you do with a pile of wrong information?
This is the fear of builders putting there work out in public and adding to the pile of WRONG! information.
 

donfarr

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#7
Dave I understand the problemns of creating this concept, and agree with you on the time and effort to do this it will take a COMPANY WITH A LARGE VOLUME AND CHEAP BUT KNOWLAGABLE WORKFORCE TO DO THIS as yo u might have gused I am talking about the Chinese, the Rusians to do this, as with the past, I can remember the cost of COLOR TVs when they came out and over the years the cost droped a lot, same with computers especially lap tops, again the market place gave its desires and the price droped, the time will come when this becomes this concepet will be common place, you can not stop an idea like this and not move on it is that or the dying out of the HOBBY THAT REFUSE TO RECON WITH THE FUTURE, just my opion. Don
 

didit

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#8
I agree in time this hobby may move in a high tech direction but not for years.

the problem is very few are actually doing the work if we had an army of tech savvy builders it would move much faster but then there is a part of the hobby that does NOT want it moving in the tech area and keep it a traditional "made by hand" art
 
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donfarr

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#9
Dave THERE IS NO PROGRES WITHOUT PAIN, and RISKS the fearfull remain static and the bold advance, if it is wrong due to the lack of documentation so be it the concept is out there HAPPENS WITH EVERY ADVANCE that I can think of, the WEAK WAIT FOR THE MARKET PLACE THE BOLD MOVES ON REGARDLESS OF THE MARKET PLACE,,,WIN SOME LOSE SOME THE BOLD MOVE ON, TRYING OUT NEW METHODS AND NEW IDEAS, weak and scared stay still, MY THOUGHTS AND OPIONS. Don
 

didit

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#10
to do this it will take a COMPANY WITH A LARGE VOLUME AND CHEAP BUT KNOWLAGABLE WORKFORCE TO DO THIS as yo u might have gused I am talking about the Chinese, the Rusians to do this

yes and no yes because of a large volume and no because the knowledgeable work force which they seem to not have because look at the products produced which are copies of what has already been done, very little original ideas being developed.

no matter where you are it is the same problems.

it looks like the tech savvy part comes from us we just can not carry it to a production level because of "cost of doing business" here

really I can develop a X section of the Mississippi engine room but hire a 3D artist at $75.00 an HOUR and there is 100 hours of work just to create the model
 
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didit

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#11
way back talking to Winston we realized it is the same tiny group of people that are active on all the different forums but yet there are thousands of model builders out there.
SO

What is the deal? most builders don't trust the information on public forums? most are just shy and stay out of the public?

the point is

only a fraction of a tiny group are adding to the collective knowledge of the hobby and part of that, is it credible information

the forum is growing at a rapid pace but is the adding of information keeping up with the rapid growth?
 

donfarr

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#12
Dave my good and dear friend on this I have to disagree with you on THE CHINESE AND KNOW THE RUSSIANS ARE USING NEW TECHNOLOGY it is in its infant stage but progressing rapidly, JUST LOOK AT MY LITTLE PICTURE FRAME MODEL not existing anywhere else, THEY HAVE EXCELLENT X SECTIONS DIFFERENT FROM ANY WHERE ELSE they continue to change items adding or deleting to make them more attractiv , THE DUTCH POF PEGASUES NOT FOUND ANY WHERE ELSE, MASTER KORBLE DESIGNIG NEW CONTRUCTION METHODS STILL CLING TO HISTORICAL PRECEPTS, DAVE I FOR ONE WOULD LOVE TAKE AN ANCRE NONOGRAPH AND BUILD IT NO CAN DO MY SKILLS ARE NOT THERE, and at 80 how much time do I have left, this hobby is TO ME MY LIFE SUPPORT OTHERWISE I WOULD BE IN A HOME SO THIS TO ME IS MORE THEN A HOBBY, TOLD BY MY Drs. so if I CAN NOT DO SCRATCH BUILD FROM ANCRE ON THE FRENCH SHIP LABELL, I CAN GET IT IN KIT FORM FROM CHINA, if more companys were like the LUMBERYARD AND DAVE STEVENS I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU YOU LOVE THIS HOBBY MORE THEN ANY COMPANY I KNOW OF MORE THEN JUST A BUISNESS TO YOU,, you care about your products you produce them WITH LOVE AND I APPRECIATE THAT, YOUR BUISNESS HAS GONE ON FOR 30plus years YOU MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT AND YOU STILL ARE, but sometimes you are just as stubron as I am, I HOPE YOU STILL ARE GOING WITH THE MSB projects AS SOON AS WINSTON HAS THE PRTOTYPE, JUST ANOTHER THOUGHT WHY do you not get together with MIKE41 and produce something together, what ever it is it would be facinating something that would not take years to build, using the new technolagdly to do something,,,,,TRUTHFULLY DAVE MY biggest problem doing scratch builds is a lack of A BUILDING JIG i can not do it without a jig have tried boy have I tried i still have two models not completed because of this, YOU Oenda, AND THE Genl. Washington, have the frames and keel segments done o both but ca not get it right installing them the in every direction, not the right spacing I just can not get it close to being right so it sits there, unfinshed, I would love to be able to have a GANTRY LIKE MIKE41 has but I can not do it myself maybe 10 or 15 years ago but not now..LET ME HERE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS MY DEAR FRIEND AND MENTER. Don
 

didit

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#13
on THE CHINESE AND KNOW THE RUSSIANS ARE USING NEW TECHNOLOGY it is in its infant stage but progressing rapidly,

that technology has been around for a long time the problem is not being able to afford to use it and still produce a reasonable priced kit
my point was not the use of technology it was the same old subjects being reinvented over and over just look at this company's line up of kit subjects
nothing new here
DRUID 1776(KM02)
Golden Star(KM03)
Confederacy(KM07)
HMS surprise(KM05)
HARVEY1847(KM04)
constitution(KM06)
Rattlesnake 1782 (KM09)
Santa Maria1492
American
May Flower 1615 KML07
Bounty KMS12
HMS Victory KL12
H.M.S. Halifax (KSL05)
Le Soleil Royal ship model kits
Sovereign of the Seas model kits
HMS Royal Caroline 1749

every now and then something new might appear but the main list stays the same. for a model builder to break away from this cycle of same stuff over and over you would have to tune to scratch building and as you pointed out that is not easy to do.

TRUTHFULLY DAVE MY biggest problem doing scratch builds is a lack of A BUILDING JIG i can not do it without a jig have tried boy have I tried i still have two models not completed because of this, your Oneida,

the Oneida was a kit designed to meet a trend a number of years ago. a group decided it was uncool to build ships in jigs upside down. They were pushing the idea model ships should be built like a real ship from the keel up. Well that idea fell flat because using a jig was a great idea. I never did go back and redesign the Oneida I just moved on to different projects.

WHY do you not get together with MIKE41 and produce something together, what ever it is it would be fascinating something that would not take years to build, using the new technology to do something,,,,,

first of all whatever we design the end result would have to be some sort of project kit so the average hobby guy could build it, if nothing was available then anyone has to build from scratch. Few builders can turn cannons so a master print has to be made, then a master mold for example.

if the idea is just produce a builders guild like a ANCRE MONOGRAPH you said yourself you do not have the skills to start from scratch nor does the majority of kit builders. Plus such a monograph is well researched and pretty accurate in historical detail. That is another whole bunch of time and money.


it is clear it takes a team of people to do something like this because I do not have a high end 3D printer to make master parts, production molds need to be made, milled material has to be done, laser cutting, creating STL printing files, CAD files. The more people involved the more income the project has to generate to pay for these tech services.
 

didit

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#14
here is a project I am working on it is a series of cross sections of the steamer Mississippi
one section is the stern with cabins, another section is from keel to top rail which would include a gun station, another is a bow section with the 120 pound cannon the last section would be the mid section including the steam engine that has all the parts 3D printed so a builder is not only building the hull but also the engine.

As I got deeper into the project I realized I bit off more than I can chew so I reached out to model engineers and 3D design engineers to help with a 3d instruction model plus creating print files for all the needed parts.

well, well guess what for the designing a 3D model and creating the 3D printed parts for a kit is just $7,000.00 up front down payment on a $12,000.00
cost to get this into production.

all the quotes that came in are from names like Zahal and some I can not even pronounce so it looks like your right Don the techno people are not here in the US.

who is willing to pay over $2,000.00 for a high quality state of the art model kit of a X section of the first American stem powered war ship? historically correct right down to the nuts and bolts that held the engine together?

maybe go on Shark Tank and see if I can find someone willing to invest in the project I bet I will be asked how many $2,000.00 kits do you expect to sell? that 12K is only R&D and does not include actual manufacturing costs.
 
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donfarr

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#15
Hi Dave, I completly agree with you on the same old same old really getting pissed off about this, getting really boring, that is why I look for different subjects and methods I hesitate to get the same old subjects, turn to scratch building X sections from plans by MIKE41, enjoying that imensly, and learning, I would try an Ancre project if some one can produce for sale a GANTRY TYPE JIG, or if someone like you coud build a jig for sale I understand the MARKET FOR ONE IS TO COSTLY, BUT MAYBE A UNIVERSAL TYPE JIG THAT CAN BE USED OVER AGAIN, DO NOT THINK THAT IS POSSIBLE, so DAVE AS we discussed on the MSB project, WHERE DO WE GO FROM HGERE WHAT IS YOUR POSITIVE THINKING ON THIS I KNOW THE NEGITIVES, BUT AM TO STUBORON TO GIVE UP and would love to complete the ONEDIA all frames glued to kee structure be tilting all over the place a complete mess but I can take it apart and reinstall them but desperatly need some kind of GANTRY OR JIG, just my thoughts again, Dave I really can not give up and remain stagnet, in order for this hobby to continue something has to be done to harness new technology and methods or you will loose the new people coming in, any way of getting someone LIKE DELICROU or from ANCRE to try to do there project into what I like to call semi kits MAYBE JUST CRAPPING IN YHE WIND BUT HAVE TO GIVE IT A SHOT, YOUR THOUGHTS. Don
 

didit

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#16
there is something in the works by members of this forum but it has not yet hatched into anything tangible so I can not comment on it other than people are trying their best.
nobody is giving up

MAYBE A UNIVERSAL TYPE JIG THAT CAN BE USED OVER AGAIN

great idea but jigs are custom made to fit the hull every hull has a different shape and framing but a GANTRY TYPE JIG hum maybe possible

maybe I should give Bill Gates a call see if he is willing to fund some state of the art projects ok ya right!

the US has one of the highest amount of billionaires guess who else is on the top of the list?

Germany I need some German engineering no doubt about it to get things done and done right looks like I got to outsource.

Hallo alle Ingenieure da draußen
 

donfarr

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#17
Unbelivable Dave, how many langges do you speak, GOOD NEWS THAT PEOPLE HAVE NOT GIVEN UP. Don
 
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