Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

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pebbleworm
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Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby pebbleworm » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:35 pm

With a lot of time in a businessmans' motel coming up and an itch to build something small I've decided to try to build a model of the 1585 ironclad Finis Belli, built for the siege of Antwerp
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Guerre.jpg
With only that engraving to go on this is definitely a model that Mr. Chapelle-that old crank- would say should not be built. But I like it and it's my boatyard. After staring at the hull for a while it began to look a lot like a modern Dutch "Fries Jacht"-
http://www.windenwater.nl/Hommel/
Scroll all the way down for a picture of the whole boat, but there are alot of good boatbuilding pictures on the way down. Even the tumblehome almost matches the Finis Belli. I figure I can start with the lines of a Fries Jacht, lengthen it a bit and get to a shallow draft round ended barge. Once I get some decent drawings done it should be a relatively straightforward project. Simple superstructure and not a lot of rigging. Also, not a lot of references. Just about everything I've found is based on the engraving and some ca. 1890's magazine articles. If anyone knows of anything else I would like to know! I think the middle two in that forest of masts were only there to mount the fighting tops. The 16th Century is a dimly lit period in maritime history which is one of the things that makes it interesting. And I get to put cannon with large wheels on it too!
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popeye
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby popeye » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:49 am

cute sail boat ;) I think though, that in looking at the first picture, you might do better using a galleon hull, and build off of that. of course, the sail boat might not be a bad build either ;)
finished builds:
Nordkap 476 / Cux 87 / Gundalow
Mary Ann / Susan A. / M&M fun ship
Phylly C & Denny-Zen / AmericA
Andrea Gail

in cue:
Gothenborg
Half Moon
Boulogne Etaples
trawler Syborn
U.S.S. United States
Holiday Harbor
Titanic
Sgtmik
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby Sgtmik » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:26 pm

Mr. Pebbleworm, in my best Charles Laughton accent, "Behold the turtle he makes no progress until he sticks his neck out." Go for it. :music-rockout: :handgestures-salute:
Regards
Mike

Current Builds : HMAV Bounty
Caravel Santa Maria
Completed builds: HMS Bounty's Jolly Boat
H.M. Bark Endeavour
Builds in Cue: H.M.S. Endeavour's Long Boat
U.S.S. Constitution
pebbleworm
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby pebbleworm » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:31 pm

RE: the ship "Its' great bulk rendered it useless"... Poking around on the web I have found little information on the ship itself, even in Dutch, French and Spanish. I think using a Fries Jacht or Lemsteraak hull is going to work, just that the scale will change from 1/20 to something smaller. And the hull will look plausible instead of being my first attempt at naval architecture. Fortunately there are plenty of lines plans for full and model size Lemsteraaks out there on a bunch of excellent Dutch websites. From what I can puzzle out, the hulls of both types are just about identical in shape and proportion, but the Lemsteraak is larger. I'm at the point of taking measurements off of the engraving and trying to straighten out the perspective view to get a straight side and top view. I usually am scratchbuilding science fiction models in plastic, so I've done this before. By the way, an excellent book on how to generate model plans is "Model design anbd blueprinting handbook" by Charles Adams available from:
http://www.modelersnotebook.com/MDBH1-main.html
Here is a review:
http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules ... nt&id=2459
pebbleworm
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby pebbleworm » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:25 pm

Looking for period references for scale I ran across some ripping sea battle paintings by Hendrick Cornelisz Vroom:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... r_1602.jpg
and
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ermeer.jpg
pebbleworm
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby pebbleworm » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:59 pm

Today I spent some time playing with paper cut outs of lemsteraak plans and calculating the proprtional size of features on the ship. And everything seems to fit at this back-of-the-napkin stage sketch. Next two steps will be to draw some actual measured plans and figure out what the actual scale is. Even in the distance, the Spanish galley is absurdly tiny and the guns are BIG. Not quite Tsar Cannon big, but Mons Meg and Dulle Griet big (monster cannon from the 14th Century). Maybe silly big, buit the silliness is part of the appeal.And the gunports are the size of a single car garage door which did not seem practical until I found this picture:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/21753285
The most detailed description of the ship I have found is in The British Navy Book:
https://books.google.com/books?id=DCfvq ... vy&f=false
But there are no references, and I have not been able to verify most of the details. I think I'll have to assume Commander McBrag just making stuff up, even though I would really like to have three rudders...
I do have good hull plans of a Dutch royal yacht, the Green Dragon, and I am thinking the half-bulkhead method Clare used on his America will work well for the framing. I was not looking forward to notching a bunch of bulkheads, I'm having fun researching and doodling!
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popeye
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby popeye » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:35 am

imagine how good your going to feel, when the ship is half built, on your table! ;)
finished builds:
Nordkap 476 / Cux 87 / Gundalow
Mary Ann / Susan A. / M&M fun ship
Phylly C & Denny-Zen / AmericA
Andrea Gail

in cue:
Gothenborg
Half Moon
Boulogne Etaples
trawler Syborn
U.S.S. United States
Holiday Harbor
Titanic
pebbleworm
Petty Officer Third Class
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Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:17 pm

Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby pebbleworm » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:46 pm

Thanks for the moral support! My doodles are starting to get dimensions and with some effort I can start to think how things would have gone together in 1585. Reading through "The Matthew Project" at modelshipbuilder has been very helpful in seeing how to generate plans and cut parts:
http://modelshipbuilder.com/page.php?64
One complication is my time in the motel is suddenly going to start 5 days from now instead of 5 weeks, but I spent part of yesterday (before I knew I was leaving so soon) making stripwood, and I can ship myself a box of tools. Some of the details of the fo'c'sle , poop and superstructure will have to wait until the hull is done but fortunately all are simple parts. In a lot of ways this ship is like a sail powered confederate ironclad. Slowly this "vaisseaux prodigieux" is taking form.
Sgtmik
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Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby Sgtmik » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:38 pm

I followed your link to the Mathew project, and I found so many similarities to the Spanish Caravel Santa Maria that I am building. She is a 1:200 scale rather small for my clumsy hands but I will press on. Thanks I found that link very helpful. :text-thankyouyellow: :handgestures-salute:
Regards
Mike

Current Builds : HMAV Bounty
Caravel Santa Maria
Completed builds: HMS Bounty's Jolly Boat
H.M. Bark Endeavour
Builds in Cue: H.M.S. Endeavour's Long Boat
U.S.S. Constitution
pebbleworm
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Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:17 pm

Re: Plotting a Finis Belli a ca. 1585 ironclad

Postby pebbleworm » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:21 pm

Glad to hear that. Sometimes the right bit of information shows up for no obvious reasons. Modelshipbuilder has the highest signal to noise ratio of any model ship forum in English I've found, probably because you have to ask nicely to participate. Their standards are high so I am a little intimidated to sign on which is probably a good thing. Once I have something built I probably will. Fluff posts (Lookin' good! etc.) are not that useful and I am trying to have something (somewhat) substantial to say when I post here. I like this board because it is pretty straightforward- not a lot of fluff, not judgemental/toe the party line and people know what they are doing. When they need help they also know what to ask. I do appreciate the moral support I have gotten with this project. Have fun with your Santa Maria- there are a lot of possible versions to build!

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